Question on Trust don't Rust.

[Knight Newbie]

I got a question regarding "trust dosen't rust"

it was mentioned in the episode that the city was taking control of the labatory in the morning. Michael and Kitt had to make sure it was secure the day before.

My question is what the heck would the city have done with Karr once that came across the Labatory. Used him as a city vehicle??

The mayor could have drove around in karr?

Also instead of building Kitt why could i think it would hve been easier to reprogram Karr. That seems to make sense...

[pewter 02ws6]

good question,i have always wondered why they didn't just re-program KARR and i too wondered why the foundation,would have left KARR behind if they knew someone else was taking over the storage building. neither make any sense but there many things that don't make any sense in a few KR episodes. lol

[Lost Knight]

Wilton Knight made the order for K.A.R.R. to be dismantled, only apparently the FLAG engineers didn't get around to it yet and unintentionally KARR was deactivated and placed in storage. I'm assuming because of Wilton Knight's death, the final steps weren't taken to ensure KARR's demise.

KARR's purpose was to be a prototype for the Knight Industries Two-Thousand, or in other words, a pre-production model. Therefore any mistakes in programming or otherwise would be corrected for the Knight 2000 as opposed to trying to correct mistakes on the original model. Since Wilton Knight's order for KARR to be dismantled was never carried out, he was unintentionally left behind and was never meant to be given away to the city. As for what the city would have done with KARR is anyone's guess; I would imagine they'd discover KARR, eventually dismantle him, and salvage valuable parts and/or sell them.

All companies create prototypes but are never actually released. The K.I.T.T. 1/18th die-cast model is a good example; the pictures we saw were of prototypes with amber lights and other inaccuracies, but those actual cars weren't redone correctly because they were show cars not meant for production, in a way just like KARR.

[knightendo]

maybe they would have to turn KARR back on to reprogram him (as with any computer) and as he said "i will defend myself". maybe they simply couldn't reprogram him while he was activated, and it was just easier to start afresh, after all KARR could have infiltrated all of the systems and it would be safer to purge everything before reprogramming. i'm assuming from the pilot and from tdr that they were in a hurry to put together a new car and didn't have the time to do all this (after all FLAG was being toppled from within at the time), so while they were deciding what to do with KARR maybe they already started on the next model to speed things along...?

as for the city taking possession of the building, i'm assuming anything inside it would be scrapped, KARR included. yes, yes, i know "what about MBS and all the computer systems?". well FLAG seemed to have a very good working relationship with all the local law enforcement and government agents, i'm sure there was something arranged to dispose of the car safely by the city...?

what do others think? these are just what i assumed first time i saw it.

[Lost Knight]

I agree with that, I neglected to mention the idea that the FLAG engineers were under pressure to complete the Knight 2000 and weren't concerned with K.A.R.R. Wilton Knight knew his time was running out, and put the pressure on to get the Knight 2000 completed. KARR was disguarded for the time being and I don't think a priority. If KARR wasn't deactivated, there would have been no way to successfully dismantle him or reprogram him because he would have fought for his survival, thus the fatal mistake of the self-preservation programming. FLAG could have provided the knowledge to dismantle KARR and neutralize the Molecular Bonded Shell, kind of in the same way that it was neutralized in "Knight Of the Juggernaut."

[pewter 02ws6]

although some of you have good points, i think the idea of the foundation simply forgetting about KARR because of pressure of building KITT is ridiculous.KITT was completed and after he was,i think their first priority should have been to dismantle KARR considering on how dangerous he potentially was.
lets see? build car but we must dismantle the prototype as soon as the new one is complete or the potential of great dangers will exist."oops we forgot" it wasn't like KARR was something small that could have been put on the back burner for awhile. he should have been the #1 priority after KITT was completed.
i also feel it would have been easier to re-program KARR or just to change his main CPU to make him have the programming of KITT.there is no way it would have just been easier to build an new car from the ground up especially considering that they were supposedly so far behind schedule to complete him. KARR's only fault was his programming.he was mechanically sound and had all of the abilities of KITT. this could also lead on the question... Why didn't they reprogram KARR to have the same objective of KITT once KITT was complete? then there could be two people out there saving the world.
unfortunately we will never know why

[Michael Pajaro]

Keep in mind what Devon tells Michael: "(Wilton's) company was almost toppled from within...by the same people who left you for dead on that desert highway"

Wilton Knight was probably the only person who knew everything that was going on. His health was failing, and once he realized he had people working for him who were trying to take him down I'm sure he didn't say "You're fired! But before you go, can you dismantle KARR for me?" He knew he didn't have much time left, so he could have applied all available resources towards building KITT. But then he died before assigning people to the task of dealing with KARR properly.

This isn't exactly canon, just a theory but it makes sense to me.

[knightrider2004]

maybe once a program is put in it cant be changed.

[Lost Knight]

lets see? build car but we must dismantle the prototype as soon as the new one is complete or the potential of great dangers will exist."oops we forgot" it wasn't like KARR was something small that could have been put on the back burner for awhile.

There's a few explanations here...the ones I can think of are:

A)Wilton Knight died before he was able to personally be there to see K.A.R.R. be dismantled
B)The FLAG engineers tried to topple FLAG from within the company and purposely neglected to dismantle KARR
C)The FLAG engineers were incompetent and forgot to carry out Wilton Knight's order to dismantle KARR
D)The engineers were preoccupied with the rushed construction of the Knight 2000 and Michael's circumstances

I think it's very possible that they could have forgotten about KARR for a few reasons....the deadline to turn over the building to the city was approaching and it would no longer be their problem (they might not have had enough time to complete the task), they forgot or simply procrastinated dismantling KARR in the first place, so would it be that hard to believe they screwed up again? (on top of the fact that they also screwed up when they programmed KARR in the beginning), and of course Wilton Knight's absence.

I agree of course it would be easier to simply reprogram KARR rather than build the Knight 2000, but either way they may have had to dismantle KARR, whether it was for Wilton Knight's order, or to remove his A.I. and replace it with K.I.T.T. Instead of being a brand new production line model, KITT would instead be a refurbished and potentially problematic prototype. Concerning technology, it's always best to avoid refurbished products and instead get something entirely brand new. The plan was to build the Knight Industries Two-Thousand, not a refurbished Knight Automated Roving Robot.

[FuzzieDice]

If anyone read the Trust Doesn't Rust book (Knight Rider 2), there's some info in that. But I do believe that the DVD version of the episode, Devon does mention that while they were moving FLAG to Wilton's remote mansion to hide from Tonya an gang, they DID forget to dismantle KARR. There simply wasn't time between KARR's deactivation, the move, and then Michael's shooting and reconstructive surgery during which time the techs were ordered by Devon to work "24/7" on the Knight 2000 (K.I.T.T.)

However, AFTER Micheal got rid of Tonya in his first mission, there were 6 MORE missions before the discovery of KARR so you would have thought that by then, Devon at least would have known to get someone to dismantle the vehicle. And, as in the show, there WAS a guard at the building. If there was nothing more useful there, and the city was to take it over (why leave useful things worth guarding in a building that someone ELSE would take over?) then Devon would have at least seen to it that whatever was guarded was to not be there anymore. Perhaps that was to be Michael's job to "secure" the building, ie. remove anything left that was being guarded that they didn't intend to go to the city.

And, I think both in the episode (and I am very sure in the book), the building was to become the "Knight Museum of Technology" and KARR wasn't really supposed to be dismantled, but used as a museum piece. At least, that's what the book said. The book was written by Glen A. Larson and Roger Hill.

So from the info I get form the DVD episode, plus the Knight Rider 2: Trust Doesn't Rust book, here's how the scenerio of KARR was played out:

1. THE BIRTH AND DEACTIVATION OF KARR

Wilton designed KARR to be the "Car of the Future". But when they went to test KARR, they gave the order for him to complete the coarse as fast as he possibly can. No other instructions. He went through the test course, but also ran over planted dummies including one of a woman and a tram with a baby doll in it. KARR thought he did well, since he got through the course in record time. But the scientists, technicians and Wilton Knight was horrified. They also tried to get Wilton's Nephew as KARR's driver, initially, but KARR said that the "Kid" was "unacceptable" and rejected him. Thus KARR was seen as not usable, dangerous, and thus deactivated and put into storage.

2. KNIGHT INDUSTRIES SECRETS STOLEN / MOVE of OPERATIONS

Tonya and her gang are in the business of criminal black market sales of high technology secrets. They had stolen and sold some of Wilton's secrets already and he was in a bad situation. They were on his trail obviously after his secrets for his "Car of the Future". This is another reason why Wilton never wanted to release KARR's design to auto makers to make these cars go to production. Wilton had to hide, including his whole Knight Industries operation. Thus he relocated everything, including FLAG to his mansion properties. KARR was brought along and stored there.

Wilton by that time also had his old friend Devon working on the other part of the project which would involve the car - Foundation for Law and Government. Also to try and help rid himself of Tanya's gang (operating above the law, etc.) and in the future others like them.

3. RUSH TO SAVE WILTON'S SECRETS

Wilton knew he was dying, and just at the same time Tonya was on a blood-hunt for him and his secrets. Wilton knew if his prototype car ideas and FLAG were to survive, just moving them would not be enough. They'd be discovered eventually. So, he had Devon rush to build the Knight 2000 from scratch, since KARR was too dangerous to reactivate to reprogram and had too much wrong with him. There was no time to loose. So in the span of TWO MONTHS and some 24/7 work, K.I.T.T. was created and activated. Wilton dies shortly after.

4. K.I.T.T. UNFINISHED

Even though K.I.T.T. was activated and working, and found to be much safer than KARR, he was unfinished. For instance, at the end of the pilot, note that he had to be towed in for repairs. Reading the script at the Knight Rider Archive, KITT mentioned he was suffering from "Acute Exhaustion" (something that was cut out of the final episode filming). Not all of KITT's system were even working at 100%. While some things were tested for safety, KITT himself didn't even know if he could turbo boost through a truck, for instance (that is in the epsiode)). Devon even told him he didn't remember testing THAT part of his systems! As KITT and Michael went on, Bonnie continually finished KITT's primary building and then added on as they went along. Also noticed in the pilot Michael didn't have a comm link to KITT even (he had to use pay phones).

So, all this went on in a span of 2 months. After the demise of Tonya and her gang, though, Devon certainly had some time to remember to dismantle KARR. Certainly all the other "missions" Michael went on should have left Devon enough time for one simple call to technicians to do this work. KITT was out on the field, Bonnie in the Semi at times. Bonnie did mention "other technicians" as did KITT if I remember right, so they did have them.

So in that sense, I can't see how they could have forgot KARR for THAT long. Maybe for awhile while they got KITT on the road and finally finished, but after that, there was time for dismantling KARR.

This is all from what I have found in the DVD episode and the book though. And as we all may know, TV shows don't always have a very consistant story line throughout. Star Trek had a lot of YATI's too (Yet Another Trek Inconsistency ) When you have several script writers doing things (as any show does) sometimes it's hard for them to keep things straight as to what went on when and why. If they had kept an "overall outline" as they built the show though, they might have had better luck explaining KARR's existance.

KARR was to be KITT's "older brother" as such. But oddly, I do NOT see any mention of "Brother" in the book or the episode if I remember right. KARR did call KITT his "Twin" but that's not accurate since Twins are born pretty much minutes or days apart, not months. Guess it was assumed KARR was a brother of KITT.

And KARR calling KITT an "inferior production line model" is incorrect because KITT wasn't a production line model to begin with and not meant to be. KITT too was to be a prototype (a second and better try, of course) from which hopefully more cars would be developed from using the technology build around KITT. I guess that was the premise of Team Knight Rider - Those vehicles were the production line models, and KITT of course the prototype for them. And may be why KITT (Shadow) was used as a "guide" for one of the drivers, etc.

Just my guess at what was going on based on all that I currently found out about the show.

[knightendo]

i agree there with both mike and lost.

think about it, you can't reprogram a computer until it's turned on, and look what happened once the KARR computer was turned on! they knew they couldn't do that! they also couldn't just take out his CPU, think about if you deleted a program from your home computer without uninstalling all of its components... you end up with bits and pieces of it remaining, hence why we have "uninstall" in the first place. KARR would still be infiltraing the systems in some way...

since they would have had to have worked on a solution but they were running short on time, the best solution was probably to build KITT from scratch.

remember, once a computer is shut down that's it, it can't turn itself back on again, they couldn't possibly have forseen the accidental switching on of KARR's power.

(strange thing is, even though it's only a tv show, a lot of this that we're all putting forward actually makes sense in modern-day context! lol)

[FuzzieDice]

They could have easily reprogrammed KARR. I'm a programmer and know that you need CODE to work on. So, KARR's "programming" CODE wasn't even in the car to begin with! Just the executable modules. The code itself must have been stored securely elsewhere (otherwise someone was pretty damn stupid!) They'd only need to just look at the original code, see what went wrong and fix it on a machine that is NOT hooked up to any network, such as a development computer. Then take the old CPU out, pop out the prom, erase it, pop in the new one with the new programming. For KARR's memory and experiences, they could put in a new storage device (or hook the old storage device with KARR's database on it and erase it clean). Then put in the new CPU and storage device into the car and viola! No more problem!

Technically that is all that would be needed to redo the "programming" as it were.

The memory and all the AI learns would be in the database. So, you can never "loose" your "friend" if you do regular backups of the database and have a copy of the code handy to recompile if needed. If something goes, just use the backups. The worst that would happen is that the car in question would have a bit of short-term memory loss. As for the program itself - that only processes information and then stores it's findings in the database. If that should become damaged, then you just fix the hardware, recompile the program and put in a new Prom with the programming in and you're all set. Reinstall database from backups if necessary.

Certainly if they were smart enough to build artificially intelligent robot cars, they should have known at least THIS much.

[Lost Knight]

Whew! A lot of reading to catch up on there! Very interesting stuff, this turned out to be a really entertaining thread.

Now getting back to removing the CPU and/or A.I., this has happened to K.I.T.T. a few times during the series. I remember KITT's A.I. was removed and tossed into a garage and the Knight 2000 stolen, I'm not sure if that was the same episode where he was incorporated into a portable TV.

Anyway, according to the show, it seems that KITT's A.I. can be removed without disrupting the rest of the Knight 2000's functions and can be installed and removed just like a CD rom drive can on ordinary computers. In Knight Rider 2000, Michael also installs KITT into the '57 Chevy and later the Knight 4000 as well. This seems to suggest that maybe K.A.R.R.'s A.I. could have been removed while he was deactivated. What do you guys think?

[Michael Pajaro]

The writers certainly weren't AI experts, and I think they were a bit loose with the rules how KITT operates. In Soul Survivor, Michael finds KITT's CPU and that's enough to transfer KITT's personality into "a little TV". They make no mention of memory or other components. I believe that KITT (or any future AI) was more than just some software. I think that KITT's programming/memory/hardware are all intricately connected somehow, if for no other reason than dramatic license: if KITT was a simple database or program, there would be absolutely no concern of KITT ever being destoyed, they could always just go back to restoring yesterday's back-ups. There's no excitement in that.

Although the writers often described KITT in many ways as being just like any other computer, I don't think we can apply our current software knowledge to something as sophisticated as KITT.

[FuzzieDice]

Whew! A lot of reading to catch up on there! Very interesting stuff, this turned out to be a really entertaining thread.

Sorry, didn't mean to be a motormouth. My brain just had a field day with some of this stuff. I always loved KARR as well as KITT so I enjoy these conversations, especially when they get rather technical.

Now getting back to removing the CPU and/or A.I., this has happened to K.I.T.T. a few times during the series. I remember KITT's A.I. was removed and tossed into a garage and the Knight 2000 stolen, I'm not sure if that was the same episode where he was incorporated into a portable TV.

Exactly. Yes, that was the episode. My favorite episode of all - "Soul Survivor".

Anyway, according to the show, it seems that KITT's A.I. can be removed without disrupting the rest of the Knight 2000's functions and can be installed and removed just like a CD rom drive can on ordinary computers. In Knight Rider 2000, Michael also installs KITT into the '57 Chevy and later the Knight 4000 as well. This seems to suggest that maybe K.A.R.R.'s A.I. could have been removed while he was deactivated. What do you guys think?

You're right and those are some of the other things I've considered. Really, they could have made KARR into a TV set for awhile.

[FuzzieDice]

Although the writers often described KITT in many ways as being just like any other computer, I don't think we can apply our current software knowledge to something as sophisticated as KITT.

I think too, they wanted to give KITT a life of his own. While they never (oddly enough) called KITT a robot (yet they had KARR call himself one), I think it was assumed we were to think of KITT as more of a robot than a computer, or even more than just a robot, but a sentient robot life form of it's own. But then they mixed in things where he could be taken OUT of his robot body and exist (in his conscience and personality) in another form (ie. a TV set). Another case in point is AFTER Soul Survivor came Junkyard Dog where KITT was in an acid pit and completely destroyed (I think that's the one). Or pretty much so that they had to build another car. KITT was afraid of getting damaged again to the point where he set himself on fire, even. Weird that even a sentient robot would be AFRAID of severe damage when it can see it's pretty much immortal and can always be reconstructed! So that too gave KITT more of a sense of him being a life form, even more than just a computerized robot car.

It's also been said that William Daniels didn't want credit as KITT's voice because he wanted KITT to be an entity of his own.

This is a puzzle for anyone to further think on: What if (and this never happened in the shows, but...) someone came along, found KITT's backups (they would by then almost certainly have them!) or even download KITT's program and database into another computer and... Clone KITT?

They cloned Devon, and Bonnie. Odd that the only "clone" of KITT was KARR. It would have been something if there were two Exact KITT's (right down to his preservation of human life programming and voice) and Michael had to figure out in the end which one was the real KITT!

[Lost Knight]

Getting off topic for a second, K.I.T.T. says in season one something like "I don't have feelings." In Knight Rider 2000 he says "...I do have a feelings chip."

[Lost Knight]

FuzzieDice- Then K.I.T.T. would be reduced to a Napster file! Nooooo!

[FuzzieDice]

Lost Knight - Why not? I'd d/l him and install him in my car and then we'd go out on the town and have some fun. Oops... until he happens along a replica who wonders how he got himself into a Pontiac 6000 (to which I'd say "Just be glad it's no '56 Chevy! )

[pewter 02ws6]

did anyone ever find it odd that after TDR,they never went to gather KARR's remains?i think that even though he exploded,there would still be remains of things that could be dangerous if they were to fall in the wrong hands.another thing is that they should have double checked to make sure KARR was destroyed but they didn't.do you think if KITT was in the same scenario due to some freak accident,they would have just assumed he was gone?surely not! how much trouble would it have been to send a few scuba divers down or even michael as i believe he scuba dove in an episode or two,to recover any remains? same thing at the end of KITT vs KARR,they just left KARR's remains there.one thing that always bothered me was that they focused in on what was to be the laser i believe at the end of that episode.they made it seem as if KARR had a chance to survive in some way or left that the laser would pop up in a future episode but nothing ever came from it.

[Lost Knight]

Definately no excuse to leave K.A.R.R.'s remains unattended both times. The same type of carelessness that prevented KARR from being dismantled in the first place on the Foundation's part. The first time we can argue that it was because Wilton Knight died, the second time it was Devon's fault for not having the remains cleaned up. The least he could have done was have the Foundation pay for the repairs to the bridge that their vehicle destroyed.

The only explanation I can really come up with for that is that Devon had too many missions for Michael that needed to be completed (his missions were usually all over the country and he and K.I.T.T. were always on the move and under deadlines).

After "K.I.T.T. Vs. K.A.R.R.," Michael and KITT must have rescued the men in the armored truck somehow (I doubt they left the scene neglecting them), and KARR's remains had to have been discovered when the bridge that KARR destroyed eventually got repaired. At least I assume it got repaired; I have a hard time believing a destroyed bridge would be neglected.

[FuzzieDice]

I think writers left "holes" for more possible stories in the future.