08 KR 2h movie?

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08 KR 2h movie?

Post by peter » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:31 am

Well Ive dl this movie and seen it what suprised me the most is that it wasn´t 2 hours long it was only 1.20h. Does it mean when you guys in the US is going to watch a 2h movie on tv that 40 minutes of this is commercials?
Or was the thing i down loaded cut? The last scene was the backing out of the aeroplane correct?

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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by PHOENIXZERO » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:13 am

Yes, there were about 40 minutes of commercials which is about three to five minutes above average per an hour, a regular hour long TV program is usually around 43 to 45 minutes long. Of course back when the original series was first aired episode length was something like 48 minutes. But networks wanted more space for commercials. :roll: Someday it'll probably get to 40 minutes and on its way to just 30.

It was rather frustrating, you'd think with all the money Ford tossed them NBC could have aired it with "limited commercial interruptions" maybe allowing then an extra ten or fifteen minutes and then just having longer blocks of what commercial breaks there would be left.
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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by goldbug » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:16 pm

PHOENIXZERO wrote:It was rather frustrating, you'd think with all the money Ford tossed them NBC could have aired it with "limited commercial interruptions" maybe allowing then an extra ten or fifteen minutes and then just having longer blocks of what commercial breaks there would be left.

I don't think it would have mattered. Remember, by the time the story was written the Writer's Strike was in full effect. Even if Ford had decided to do so, I don't think the writers would have been allowed to actually write another ten to fifteen minutes in.

I actually had no problem with the length of the movie. It worked just fine for me after several viewings sans commercials. Would I have minded another action scene? Nah, but nor do I think it was critical.
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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Johnathan Kent » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:51 pm

I enjoyed it although there was some stuff that made me a little uncomfortable but storywise it was ok..would love to see this go to series with it getting revamped or some of the bugs worked out when it goes to series this fall. Long way to go so we'll see what happens!
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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Shapeshifter » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:34 am

I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but it's hard to stay up on everything.

The problem wasn't that the script was short and they didn't have time to write another 10 minutes. Originally, the script was 90 minutes. They had to cut 11 minutes OUT of the script because NBC didn't give them enough money to make a 90 minute movie. They only had enough money to make an 79 minute movie. So, with 2 hours to fill, the rest had to be commercials.

Sucks, but there it is.

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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Victor Kros » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:03 pm

Shapeshifter wrote:I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but it's hard to stay up on everything.

The problem wasn't that the script was short and they didn't have time to write another 10 minutes. Originally, the script was 90 minutes. They had to cut 11 minutes OUT of the script because NBC didn't give them enough money to make a 90 minute movie. They only had enough money to make an 79 minute movie. So, with 2 hours to fill, the rest had to be commercials.

Sucks, but there it is.


- Forgive me if I'm skeptical of this response considering that both Universal and General Electric take in vast amounts of money from their various other projects such as the home video/dvd market, theme parks, merchandising etc.

They have enough money to make more multi million dollar movies such as The Mummy 3, Fast and the Furious 4, etc.

With all due respect to Shapeshifter (and I mean that), I just do not believe that a lack of money was a deciding factor in filming an extra 11 minutes of footage. I think quite honestly considering how much money was sunk into their agressive marketing campaign this is yet another excuse to appease Ford's demands for exposure which required them to cut down what they were going to shoot to accomidate the commercials and not vice versa.

What you've stated makes absolutely no sense because of the simple fact they apparently had the finances to sink into what? 4 or 5? consecutive FORD ADVERTISED "Mike and KITT" commercials? Why didn't they lose those and put the money back into the product they're pitching to take to series in the first place?

Who paid for THOSE extra commercials and how much time do you think those ate up in the time slot? I think the reality here is Ford called the shots the moment they were attached to the project and forced cuts to fit in their exhaustive promotion of their product. I do not buy into the idea that Universal is so desperate for cash they could not cover the cost for that extra 11 minutes of footage.

11 minutes is nothing, it's not the time that matters its what's being filmed. If it's another big budget stunt sequence, sure it might matter but there is no excuse why they couldn't have taken this time and put in more character development instead. Maybe show Dylan pay off the thugs, or give Mike Tracer or Charles some flashbacks.

Larson didn't have an extensive budget to work with either but he still managed to give the people a full 100 minutes (according to the VHS) in addition to commercials then again Pontiac didn't insist that Universal promote their car exhaustively throughout the pilot by getting involved with the creative process either, the car spoke for itself not distracting camera tricks.

My how times have changed when a sponsor can completely dominate your own product with their own but I guess that's how it goes these days eh?

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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Michael Pajaro » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:29 pm

That's a rather limited view of how studio budgets work (or any business for that matter.) You can't simply say that because a studio makes giant blockbuster films that they can just take those profits and throw them into a TV production.

I don't know the contract details, but I guarantee you Ford didn't say "here's 5 million dollars, go make a movie. Oh, and maybe make a few commercials along with it." Instead, as part of the contract Ford paid NBC a certain amount of money (which probably did go into the production), and then agreed to purchase ADDITIONAL advertising time during the show. Then Ford created the Mike & KITT commercials. Those are two very distinct pools of money that you can't just dump together.

Also, I don't believe NBC actually spent that much money publicizing the movie. The commercials and on-air bugs are kind of "free money". NBC already has a certain amount of time dedicated for promoting their own shows. I did not see any billboards, bus stop posters, or any other kind of large-scale outside publicity. And living in Los Angeles, I am BOMBARDED with those kinds of ads. The only print ad I found was in Sports Illustrated.

Times HAVE changed. And because of that, it's not fair to say that Pontiac didn't make demands on Universal back in the 80s. Pontiac is certainly making big demands on NBC now (See Heroes.)
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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Victor Kros » Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:41 pm

This a subject we'll have to agree to disagree on. Clearly there are misconceptions involved from both views of the subject. Marketing materials/sources for television and for feature films differ as do the rules of their distrubution.

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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Shapeshifter » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:41 pm

I stand by the assertions I made, because it's what I heard. We go with what we know.

Mike is right that you can't lump the TV and Commercial productions together. Completely separate budgets, director, crews...really everything. And all that originated from a different source--the ad agency that Ford works with, not NBC.

Also, you have to remember that although there are a lot of companies under the NBCU umbrella, there is no cross pollination. Movies, TV; very separate entities. So you would not be getting any help from the movie side. As far the the TV budget is concerned, they were given the ammount that NBC would traditionally spend on a pilot, with a small bump because it was a two hour action pilot, as opposed to a 1 hour normal pilot. The bump just wasn't big enough to make the original script.

As I have learned of late, money translates into days of shooting, which translates into minutes on the screen, pure and simple. So, 11 minutes are huge, when you don't have the money to shoot them. You simply can't make the rest of the movie cheaper--it costs what it costs. So, you have to cut it down.

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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Victor Kros » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:55 pm

I stand by the disagreements I've made. You say you can't lump the TV and Commercial productions together and yet people point out that they feel the "2 hour" backdoor pilot was in fact a two hour advertisment/production for Ford anyway. Based on the decisions involved on how the Mustang was shot, I tend to agree that when it comes to the car, it was in the same style of a commercial which further strengthens my belief in Ford's stranglehold over the production and length of the pilot.

I will leave it at that.

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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Johnathan Kent » Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:55 pm

I may not be in the business of TV or movies, but the one thing that bothered me (as a fanfiction writer or as a writer period) that the story that the pilot ran with kinda bothered me a bit. Some of my problems storywise were: Where was Michael Knight for the past 25 years and what was he doing? how long had FLAG been inactive? How long had the government known about both the 2000 and 3000 series? what exactly is Michael Tracuer's relationship to Michael? How did he know Michael's mother and what was her relationship with Charles Graiman? What was Graiman's relationship to Wilton Knight? why did Charles order KITT (2000 series) dismantled? How did these badguys know about WIlton Knight and the Knight Industries Two Thousand[i] and how long have Charles and Carrie Riveri known each other? did she know Wilton Knight? and of course for me the real question was how did this show relate to Knight Rider in terms of Continuity? I had watched the Knight Rider pilot to see if storywise if it would be worth watching and how the characters reacted to one another..While I enjoyed the characters chemistry especially Michael Tracuer and Charles Graiman's daughter, the storyline kinda sucked for me...just my thoughts![/i]
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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Shapeshifter » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:26 pm

victor kros wrote:I stand by the disagreements I've made. You say you can't lump the TV and Commercial productions together and yet people point out that they feel the "2 hour" backdoor pilot was in fact a two hour advertisment/production for Ford anyway. Based on the decisions involved on how the Mustang was shot, I tend to agree that when it comes to the car, it was in the same style of a commercial which further strengthens my belief in Ford's stranglehold over the production and length of the pilot.

I will leave it at that.

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Maybe people lump the two together in their minds, but that has nothing to do with the intent of the entities involved. I can assure you, there was no intent on the movie side to make it look like a Ford commercial, and there was no pressure from Ford to make it so. The decisions to make the movie the length is was had nothing whatsoever to do with what Ford wanted. It was a decision dictated by budget, nothing more.

Any similarities in style would have been because the ad agency Ford hired to make the commercials had access to dailies from the shoot, and copied the style they were seeing for their spots. Absolutely not the other way around.

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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Johnathan Kent » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:43 pm

I think we can all agree that there need to be some revamping somewhat from what we saw in the pilot and the series coming in the fall...Would that be a fair assessment?
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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Victor Kros » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:53 pm

Shapeshifter wrote:I stand by the assertions I made, because it's what I heard. We go with what we know.


- What I know based on the reactions to this question is there is no definative explaination to this question of why the 11 minutes were left out of the final product no matter how many ways anyone tries to spin it as a necessity.

Any similarities in style would have been because the ad agency Ford hired to make the commercials had access to dailies from the shoot, and copied the style they were seeing for their spots. Absolutely not the other way around.


As you stated above it's what you heard which is speculative and subject to theory, so the only thing you can really assure here in this thread is your opinion on the subject just like everyone else. I believe based on those points it's fair to say there are no absolutions anyone can make about this inquiry only estimates.

I agree with you Jonathan, very fair assessment.

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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Johnathan Kent » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:56 pm

Victor how do you think the Show will be shaped? in your honest opinion? just asking
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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Michael Pajaro » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:09 pm

Was Knight Rider filmed like a car commercial?
Or are car commercials filmed like action adventure movies?

If I'm making an action movie about a car, I want to show every angle of the car to make it look as cool as possible.
If I'm making a commercial about a car, I want to show every angle of the car to make it look as cool as possible.

If Desperate Housewives had a lot of close-up car shots, I'd suspect product placement. If 24 had a lot of close-up car shots, I'd suspect product placement. But this is a movie about a car. Of course they're going to go out of their way filming it to make the car look as good as possible. Not because Ford demanded it, but because it's a car movie.
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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Johnathan Kent » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:17 pm

interesting views Michael...what would you like to see done with the series Michael??
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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Michael Pajaro » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:20 pm

Johnathan: I suspect most of your questions will be slowly answered as the series goes on. The movie would have really bogged itself down if it had to go back and explain everything that happened over the past 25 years.

I think Star Trek: TNG did it best. When that show premiered, they left a TON of questions unanswered: How did the Klingons become our allies? What happened to Kirk? Or Spock? Or Scotty? Where's the original Enterprise? Over the course of the series (and films) they were able to go into each of those issues in depth, rather than just throwing out answers. I see the same thing happening with Knight Rider.

Which would you prefer:
1) Have Charles tell Sarah "KITT's first mechanic was a woman named Bonnie. She left the Foundation in 1988 and is now living on a farm up north with her husband Frank and 3 kids."
2) At some point have Patricia McPherson make a guest appearance where we get to see Bonnie again and learn more about her?

The same idea applies to what happened to KITT and the Foundation. We unfortunately can't have Edward Mulhare back, but maybe we'll get an episode where we the same bad guys that forced the closing of the Foundation (if that's what happens) are causing trouble again and now Charles wants revenge. Who knows. And not knowing (yet) is part of the fun.
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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Victor Kros » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:42 pm

Johnathan Kent wrote:Victor how do you think the Show will be shaped? in your honest opinion? just asking


- Not really sure to be honest, depends on if they decide to listen to the fans suggestions or continue to do things the way they think it should be done and take a risk like Bionic Woman. Personally as a Knight Rider fan I would like to see them turn things around and make a better effort to make this feel like a continuation of the original series and give the Mustang more to do then drive around fast 90% of the time reving it's engine.

If all KITT could do in the original series was drive around like any other car in high speed pursuits, even if it had a MBS shell it would have got real old real quick. Features like Turbo Boost, Ski Mode, Lasers, Grappling Hook, Smoke Screen, Oil Slick, etc. keep the car interesting and stands it apart from other cars on the road.

Glen knew this when he came up with KITT originally, he knew it had to be special and do things a standard car couldn't in order to make it work, even before the car had a design attached to it.

Michael,

"Was Knight Rider filmed like a car commercial?"
- Yes, this one was.

"Or are car commercials filmed like action adventure movies?"
- If you're Michael Bay or BMW, sure.

"If I'm making an action movie about a car, I want to show every angle of the car to make it look as cool as possible."

- Making the Mustang "look" cool isn't as necessary as making it's features look cool. You shouldn't have to make the Mustang look cool to begin with, it should speak for itself. It goes back to the "wow" factor.

"I'm making a commercial about a car, I want to show every angle of the car to make it look as cool as possible."

- No doubt but the difference is most car commercials aren't telling a complex story, they're spots and nothing more. You can't apply this view to a full length made for television movie.

- Look at the original Knight Rider episodes and you tell me that they went out of their way to show every angle of the car, including things that really had nothing to do with the special FUNCTIONS of the car like close ups of emblems, rims, spoilers, and tailights (they did show the wheels a lot however). Clearly there was a different approach taken to showing the car then the original series concepts which in my opinion were far less distracting then the overly flamboyant edits/bullet time/sped-up close up camera work of today.

The only time these effects worked for me was when it was applied to a visual effect in the first place such as the color shifting and nano-tech healing shots. When KITT's just driving out there in the middle of the desert, you don't need all that to make the car look exciting, just let the thing drive by a locked off or slightly panned camera and that's all it takes or a nice, stable, overhead shot or a smooth swish pan as the car goes by. The original series did this quite often and it spoke volumes.

Those applications in my view work great in other shows but not so much in Knight Rider because it rips you right out of the story rather then letting you be a part of it. In moderation ok I can understand that (like seeing the bullets impact the nano-tech shell) but used too frequently especially with awkward angles with no real purpose other then to scream, LOOK AT THE RIMS, LOOK IT'S A SHELBY SEE THE SNAKE! LOOK AT THE DOUBLE SPOILER IN THE BACK, IT'S COOL YOU KNOW IT! (as they were in the pilot) you become very aware you're watching a television show and no longer experiencing it.

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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Crumbling Down » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:43 pm

Yea I have to agree that if this gets picked up in a series "hopefully" most of the questions will be answered about michael knight and where he was the past 25 years along with every one loop hole left uncovered. Remember this was a pilot where the responses of the fans determined the outcome whether to go to series or not. They purposely didn't answer many things to leave room for future episodes (if made) and they will tell the tale if given a green light.

Atleast this is what I am hoping for but only time will tell.
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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Johnathan Kent » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:45 pm

ok next stupid question is are they going to release the pilot on DVD?
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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Shapeshifter » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:10 am

I will say this again.

Based on conversations with people who were there, the reason the movie clocked in at 79 minutes was because NBC would not give them the budget to make the script they commissioned. That decision was an economic one, based on their own traditional budgets for this type or project. That is not speculation, theory, or spin. That is simple fact. A theory, on the other hand, is saying that Ford is telling NBC how long to make their shows so they can run more commercials. That is theory completely unsupported by fact, and is utterly ridiculous. Then you spin that by trying to denigrate the other side's view so that both have equal weight. They don't.

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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Victor Kros » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:11 pm

Shapeshifter wrote:I will say this again.

Based on conversations with people who were there, the reason the movie clocked in at 79 minutes was because NBC would not give them the budget to make the script they commissioned. That decision was an economic one, based on their own traditional budgets for this type or project. That is not speculation, theory, or spin. That is simple fact. A theory, on the other hand, is saying that Ford is telling NBC how long to make their shows so they can run more commercials. That is theory completely unsupported by fact, and is utterly ridiculous. Then you spin that by trying to denigrate the other side's view so that both have equal weight. They don't.


- You didn't learn first hand nor did you experience first hand how the marketing and advertising was handled, how the script was revised and what Andron was asked to change to accomidate Ford's needs. You were not there in the editing room nor did you sit in on meetings because as you've said before you do not work for the studio remember? You would not have access.

Therefore all you know and have experienced is what people have TOLD YOU and that is speculation because you didn't experience the knowledge for yourself. You have no factual weight to your statements in this subject, only an opinion. I on the other hand have said nothing that is "absolute" or conveyed as "undisputed fact" in this thread", I have as I started out said, "in my opinion", "I think", and "in my view".

I am not saying your information is wrong or correct, I am saying your approach to declare it as fact is wrong and misleading. I don't blame people for their mistakes but I do ask they account for them. That last statement of yours in bold makes no sense whatsoever. I did not say my theory was factual, you assumed that.

For the sake of civility and harmony on the board, anything further you wish to discuss with me you can send in a PM. I've decided to limit my responses to those who disagree with my views to avoid escalating a conflict. Your response limit for this subject has been reached.

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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Michael Pajaro » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:38 pm

Shapeshifter's information is appreciated and there was nothing wrong with his approach in presenting it.
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Re: 08 KR 2h movie?

Post by Victor Kros » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:40 pm

Again that is an opinion, not a fact. I did not state it wasn't appreciated.

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