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Post by FuzzieDice » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:02 pm

Victor - That sounds like a good idea. :) I hope that Glen would consider it or at least parts of it. I like T.A.H.O.E.'s idea of someone being responsible for possibly tampering with the program, or maybe a virus was accidentally installed or something. Would mean KARR could eventually become a good guy. :) Though it's Glen's decision what actually happens and how he writes it.

I also am reading where they expect to have the pilot TV-Movie on NBC (Universal) "Later this year" but I hope I don't miss it if Glen goes this route. I don't watch much TV at all so anything advertised I wouldn't know until someone already said it was on (and I missed it).

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Post by Knight Rider Archive » Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:54 am

Now, I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of contract law in Hollywood, or how these two Knight Rider projects may affect each other, but the idea of a new K.A.R.R. has got me to thinking:

Glen Larson didn't create K.A.R.R. Steven E. de Souza did, in his script "Trust Doesn't Rust". de Souza also produced that script (as he did for most episodes of the first season), with Larson Exec. Producing. Now, surely that could open up a whole other can of worms if K.A.R.R. was to be reused by Larson in a Knight Rider movie...? de Souza was a big hitter in Hollywood for a while, writing Die Hard, 48 Hours, and directing a few pictures too. How would he be compensated for his creation? Would he be compensated? Where would all this leave K.A.R.R.?

I guess it comes down to the minutiae of what's in Glen's agreement -- does "film rights" encompass everything used in the whole, original series, or only the elements that Larson created in the Pilot Episode (Michael, Devon, K.I.T.T., Wilton, etc.)?

For some reason, I have a feeling in my gut that the odds are higher of seeing K.A.R.R., Garthe and Goliath in the proposed TV show (in NBC's deal) than a movie or a sequel.

Also, Victor, if you are pitching concepts to Glen, DO NOT MAKE THEM PUBLIC IN A FORUM!!! If the studios become aware of it, it can open up a whole bunch of legal issues, the possiblity of plagiarism lawsuits, and could see some really great ideas shelved, potentially forever. J. Michael Sraczynski wrote a great deal about this in his Scriptwriting book.

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Post by FuzzieDice » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:10 am

KARR was based on KITT. KITT was Larson's creation. KARR is a derivitive work of KITT, so to speak. (in real life KITT came first, not KARR). ;)

I agree about not making public ideas for the movie, actually. In fact, maybe if we have ideas we should PM Victor instead? This way it stays out of public view. I never thought of this until now. You made a good point, Paul.

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Post by Victor Kros » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:14 am

I guess it comes down to the minutiae of what's in Glen's agreement -- does "film rights" encompass everything used in the whole, original series, or only the elements that Larson created in the Pilot Episode (Michael, Devon, K.I.T.T., Wilton, etc.)?


Glen owns the rights to everything that was used in Knight Rider the TV series including all characters, concepts, creations, etc. as part of his deal to have creative control over everything invented in the Knight Rider universe.

It makes no difference that Steven E. de Souza wrote the script because by doing so and getting paid for it, it became property of Universal and since Glen was executive producer actively involved in what was being done, Glen's property as well.

I don't know how payment terms go because I don't know what was in Steven's contract but I would assume since Glen had a clause that predates Steven's involvement, Glen wouldn't have to pay him.

This means however that both Universal and Glen can use the characters invented in their respective properties. So it's possible to have two different characters named "KARR" or "KITT" or "Goliath" with entirely different looks or characteristics.

Hypothetically speaking you could make Goliath an aircraft carrier in one show and a government satallite in the movie, it doesn't matter.

KARR was based on KITT. KITT was Larson's creation. KARR is a derivitive work of KITT, so to speak. (in real life KITT came first, not KARR).


FuzzieDice is correct, K.A.R.R. was inspired as K.I.T.T.'s opposite, Steven E. de Souza used Glen's characters and concepts to create K.A.R.R. therefore neither one can argue who invented what first because they're both borrowing from one another's concepts.

It's like when someone writes a Star Wars book for Lucasfilms and invents new characters (Mara Jade, Thrawn, The Vong), no matter what circumstances of invention or design those characters then become property of Lucasfilms and in that manner Lucas's property even if he didn't invent them.

You could argue that Lucas had an "idea" of what Boba Fett would be, but he didn't actually build the backstory himself nor the design work (at the time, not counting the prequels here), he hired other people to do it for him (see link below) and yet he still owns the rights to everything associated with said character.

http://www.bobafett.com/manual/btm/artists/index.shtml

Since the Knight Rider movie is not a continuation of the original TV series but still Glen's world, any characters such as Goliath, K.A.R.R., Garth, can be recreated or reintroduced any way that Glen feels he wishes to do so.

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Post by Knight Rider Archive » Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:47 pm

Victor, thanks for clearing that up. It really is interesting finding out about the "politics" that go on behind the scenes in the creation of these things.

I had assumed, since Glen's major involvement in Knight Rider came in writing and producing the pilot episode (and consulting on the first 12 scripts of the first season), that his movie revival would retell that story and go off in an all-new direction for the sequels, using only the elements that he created in that first story. Since Larson stated that his involvement with the show ended when Bob Foster took over, I thought that might have moved the goal posts for NBC's deal, and that K.A.R.R., Garthe, Goliath, April and so on would remain the intellectual property of The Peacock.

It sounds like Glen has a great agent! :)

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Post by FuzzieDice » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:42 pm

Thank you for your info, Victor. I kind of thought it was like that but you explained it better. :)

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Post by DevonStyles » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:44 pm

Well my 2 cents...

They need to bring back the origional car... In one form or another. Just to bridge the gap so to speak... I say any car they use it should still be a trans am. The late model ram air's would look mighty nice.


The dukes of hazzard would not have worked without the general lee... Neither will knight rider... Especially with all the cameo's Kitt has been making in recent movies it would not make any sense or dollars to not include the origional car.

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Post by FuzzieDice » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:49 pm

Problem is, it's hard to find disposable Trans Ams like that anymore. They probably want to stay true to the originals and do stunts instead of CGI or at least a couple things that may total a car or two. So if they kept it the original T/A, it's likely it would be too expensive.

Then again I don't know if that is any different than taking any car and building a fiberglass kit over it like they did in KR 2000.

I guess we all will have to see.

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Post by msKEN » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:17 pm

Um how do you figure? Do you know how many chargers they killed in that new movie? I think a $60,000 car compared to a car you can get anywhere in between 1200-5000 bucks would be a hell of a lot cheaper.
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Post by FuzzieDice » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:49 pm

Chargers aren't hard to find (or even mimic, really). But Trans Ams may be a bit harder to come by. All I know is I read somewhere that it might be one reason they won't be using Trans Ams in the movie.

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Just my thoughts...

Post by BlueEyedKnight75 » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:51 am

I know a lot of the time I'm just lurking but I feel the need to express myself on this. I totally support Glen Larson's approach to this project. I would hate to see the integrity of this movie compromised because of Hollywood "politics". I think that yes, the movie should keep the same premise as the show, and yes, the same basic elements should still be included. But I don't think they need to be the whole idea behind the movie. I don't think that not making the movie about the original cast would necessarily be a deal-breaker, in that there are ways to progress the story and still include the background from the show. I also think that since there's no way they're going to get the Trans-Am into the movie, that as long as we have a car that is black (as promised) and the body style similar enough, that it can be believable. Honestly, in KR 2000 I could have bought into the KIFT if only they had made it black. I may be one of the few on this board that thought that car was pretty cool lol. On an aside, speaking of the KIFT, am I amiss in thinking that the molecular bonded shell could only be black? Didn't they mention that at some point in time during KR's run? Sorry, since having kids my mental capacity for holding that kind of trivia has gone completely out the window...

OK, back to the original thinking behind my post. I'm not saying ignore the backstory, I'm saying incorporate it and update it for the present. I do wish that David could be included in it, as well as that I think the fan base would reject anyone else doing the voice of KITT besides William Daniels. As long as the movie stays true to the series and the backstory that we all know and love doesn't wind up scrapped, I think that original fans can be happy with it, and new fans can embrace it as well. Let's be realistic, though; we're not going to get a movie that is completely like the TV series. And really, who wants that? We want a story that still follows the principles that Knight Rider was based on then, but still feels right now. We want something fresh, right? If we wanted to keep things the same, then all they'd have to do is remake Knight of the Phoenix. And I can hear the backlash on that already...another shoddy remake? That's the point. We don't want a remake, we want something original. New story with its roots still firmly planted in the show it's based on.

I want something that's now that I can show my kids and say "This is based on my favorite TV show when I was a kid," and they can say to me, "This is cool, Mom, I want to see the TV show." Then I can pull out my dvd's and they can sit with me and enjoy the show AND the movie. Maybe my daughter won't be that way, but maybe, just maybe, my son will. ;)

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Post by Victor Kros » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:28 am

BlueEyed Knight75,

I believe if I'm not mistaken that the molecular bonded shell is light gray like a primer. You can see when they reapply it to KITT after he's destroyed by toxic waste in Junk Yard Dog.

After they have rebuilt him, you can also see Michael airbrushing on the black when he feels KITT is ready to return to action.

You can also see them apply the forumula to Goliath as well and unlike KITT it appears never painted over black. I'm not entirely sure if Garthe painted Goliath gray or just left him the same gray as the MBS.

The rest of your post is great. I have an open dislike for Knight Rider 2000 but I do agree that K.I.T.T. is the computer not the car. That was proven in Soul Survivor.

I admire your last point regarding passing on the excitement you experienced with the show to your children. That's really what this movie is about, creating a new brand of fans while including the older ones.

Glen is trying to find that balance so that both audiences can be satisfied as best as possible and I honestly believe he has accomplished the first stage in this process that will continue to take shape as time goes on.

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Post by Knight Rider Archive » Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:36 am

I believe if I'm not mistaken that the molecular bonded shell is light gray like a primer. You can see when they reapply it to KITT after he's destroyed by toxic waste in Junk Yard Dog.


In Glen's original pilot, Devon states that the shell is "A finish bonded into the molecular structure of a new substance" which is not metal (or fibreglass). If the shell was the primer, the black top-coat would be able to scratch.

The intention in the script for "Junk Yard Dog" is that when Michael is respraying the Knight 2000, he is actually applying the molecular bonded shell, and "finishing" the job of rebuilding K.I.T.T.

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Post by Lost Knight » Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:46 am

Not to go off into too much of a tangent, but for years I was under the impression that the Molecular Bonded Shell was a clear, shiny substance that was applied over the black paint. This was my way of explaining why K.I.T.T. is always shiny, even after he drives through mud, sand, dust, etc. I figured that none of these substances were able to stick to the actual shell and always flaked off. When Michael is repainting K.I.T.T. in "Junk Yard Dog," I was always under the impression that the MBS wasn't yet applied as K.I.T.T. was still in the lab, though it's been awhile since I've seen the episode, so I could be wrong.

I always wondered about the shell when K.I.T.T. goes into Super Pursuit Mode as well. The Knight 2000's body splits apart during the transition, so that must mean the MBS either breaks apart or it was originally applied in sections.
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Post by T.A.H.O.E. » Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:36 pm

Hoyah all....!

STOP ME IF I AM WRONG (THO AFTER CAREFUL REVIEW OF THE DVD )
in the pilot- 1st 2 episodes ....Wilton - on his deathbed states that they tried to take away his prototype.....& as we all know in chronological order via script/episode...KARR was first ( trust don't rust )as Bonnie points out & as does Devon . . . tho I take into account who created what character,etc.etc,etc.

Hopefully we'll see in both movie and renewed (?) show a true sleek black automotive elegance that we all know,relate to & wish we had...! grace us with their symetry-automotive once more....bot KARR & KITT.
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Post by Joe Huth » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:23 pm

Lost Knight - Paul is correct regarding the MBS. KITT can certainly get dirty with the MBS still intact - like in this scene from "Ring of Fire":

Image

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Post by Lost Knight » Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:55 pm

Well, so much for that theory, lol.
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RE: MBS

Post by Victor Kros » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:16 pm

I decided to ask Glen his opinion on this one over the phone,

According to Glen the MBS (Tri-Helical Plasteel 1000 MBS) or the "Knight Compound" is a formula that once attained has to be applied twice in order to reach its full potential. The first application is mixed in with the shiny black paint used to cover KITT. In the case of Goliath, it was mixed into gray paint by Garthe's staff building him.

As you will recall, Wilton trusted the recipe to three people and made sure that each one knew one part so that any two of them could create the compound. In Goliath, Elizebeth Knight drugged Devon Miles and attained his portion of the forumla.

The MBS bonds with another element that it's mixed into so in this case the first application would be the shiny black paint that covers KITT. Essentially it means it can be either clear or effected by another element's pigment/tone it's combined with.

The second application is clear and applied over the black, which is then left to set over a period of time until both layers become solidified and "moleculary bonded" to one another to form one unified shell.

This explains why Goliath was not "ready" as swiftly as Garthe demanded him to be and why he had to wait so long before he could operate him.

This was how Glen intended the concept to be understood as it was explained to me. He doesn't care for Knight Rider 2000 or TKR but he did say if he were to wager a guess, the same process would explain why KIFT was red and the TKR vehicles weren't required to be shiny black and still could contain the MBS recipe applied to them.

As far as the SPM application is concerned, his response was "television magic" which is short for "who knows."

If you really want to spot plot inconsistancies, how is it that KARR was painted gray/silver on the bottom and yet the gray/silver which was obviously applied over the weakened MBS still able to remain unscratched?

Did John some how get a batch of the MBS and re-apply that over K.A.R.R.s his new paint job?

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Post by Lost Knight » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:11 pm

Wow, thanks for clearling that up. Knowing Glen personally sure has it's advantages, eh? "Knight Of the Juggernaut" is a good example to back this up as well. The sanitation truck sprinkled the chemical which neutralized the MBS on K.I.T.T.'s body, and yet he still remained black.

As for K.A.R.R.'s silver paint job, it actually did get a little bit scuffed on the front nose, though I think that was just from filming and not intended to be noticed. After he's destroyed, his front nose can be seen in the debris, which is entirely black instead of black and silver. Again, I'm sure it wasn't intended to be noticed, but perhaps the paint melted right off at impact. But I'd say I'm definitely reading into it too much.
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Wow!

Post by BlueEyedKnight75 » Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:36 am

I see I started some pretty interesting MBS debate here...but I do stand humbly corrected :)

As for KR2000, I was only 15 at the time that the movie was shown on TV and I was eager for the smallest TASTE of anything new that had to do with KR, KITT and Michael. I can say I liked the movie. Even though at the time I didn't know Glen didn't have anything to do with it. Of course I did have to kind of scratch my head and say "This doesn't feel like the show" but to me it was Knight Rider(!) and that was all that mattered. I didn't know anything about KR 2010 until years after it was made. I attempted to watch it but since I couldn't correlate anything about Knight Rider with this movie, I just couldn't watch it. I love KR but it has to have the human element and humor behind it as well.

But then, I'm a woman and straight-out sci-fi just tends to make my brain try to dribble out of my ears because I can't wrap my mind around all that technical stuff lol. (Which may be the whole reason behind my confusion at the MBS?) As long as there's a story that gets me emotionally involved, even just a little, I'm good. Which is what got me so hooked on the show. It wasn't just about crime fighting, it was about the relationship between Michael and KITT and everyone who had anything to do with them...and that's something that I hope won't be lacking in the movie.

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Post by T.A.H.O.E. » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:53 am

BLUE, I love your style & take on things....!

Whatever,however the scripting for the characters goes...hopefully they'll be similar & true to the look/style of the world, the world of KnightRider.

If the MBS can take a beating & is almost indestructible...then a salt water bath & immersion would not affect it...hence KARRs MBS would be in sound shape....his stucture,frame ,floorboards may suffer a bit of surface corrosion but...if the MBS can hold up to as much as KITT has endured well.....Unless his was a first development-test application, in which case there could be /would be flaws-side effects with exposure to the sun & elements...

plastics (I work with plastics-thermo forming/mixing/epoxys,etc) tend to become fragile when immersed in salt water from a river-ocean,over time but it takes months,years....even heavy duty plastics designed for marine use,along with epoxys,etc...& they can shatter/fragment when exposed to cold... So, KARRs mbs may have delveoped a destabilized point along its frame-underside...but like Space Shuttle tiles...the MBS can absorb great heat stress, so the suns white radiation would not really affect it.
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Post by T.A.H.O.E. » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:59 am

KARR got he two-tone appearance to offset his look & help him blend in with the traffic.

If John applied it, it's safe too say,t'was high gloss marine silver paint...tho very durable, it is not scuff proof unless multi-layered.
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Post by Victor Kros » Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:29 am

Actually no,

According to a deleted scene from K.I.T.T. vs K.A.R.R., KARR insisted that John paint him differently then KITT because he didn't want to be compared to the "inferior model" he wanted his own unique look.

This has been discussed quite a bit in the past when the fans asked Universal why K.A.R.R. was painted differently then KITT in the episode and they also said that the sea water had (somehow?) caused the scanner bar to fade to the signature yellow.

This has nothing to do with standing out in traffic. Behind the scenes wise, it's more likely that they did this so that the audience would be able to tell the difference between KITT and KARR, other then the yellow scanner and different voice boxes because of the level of confusion of who was who in Trust Doesn't Rust.

Personally I think K.A.R.R. looks excellent this way as opposed to being a near-exact duplicate (exterior) to K.I.T.T.

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Post by FuzzieDice » Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:43 pm

I agree. If I ever get the time to finish my MPC KITT Models, I'm making 1 KITT and 1 KARR, and the KARR one I'm making the black/silver version with yellow scanner. Besides, I think KARR looks sharp that way. :)

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KITT/KARR-PHILOS....

Post by T.A.H.O.E. » Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:30 am

COOL....I agree...KARR does look sharp...!

I felt -feel KARR got a bad /bums rush of a deal whenhe was activated & endured what (may have ) happened to him...I'd love to reprogram KARR
but I'd give hime a new different paintjob....say,oh...charcoal grey with the gold-hue reflected-tint glass...But, that's me.

And I do have to say this...discussion of KARR is a facinating topic...as we all got a bit philosophic on KR...that is what makes for great board chat! a Big Thanks Vic....!
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