Knight Rider Legacy Discussion Thread

Archive for discussions from 2002. Please post new discussions in the appropriate forum.

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Post by Centaurus17 » Fri Sep 13, 2002 7:59 pm

If thats the case, why did you not point out Behemoth?. You did not feel that his arguments were aggressive? I thought that were a lot more then aggressive.. i'll leave it at that.

Personally i think this thread has gotten very out of hand. I think everyone here, including myself, needs to lay off a little on the posting of this thread. Its getting a bit out of control. The last thing i wanted to do was to fight with people.

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Centaurus17 ]

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Post by knightimmortal » Fri Sep 13, 2002 8:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KRAvenger:
<STRONG>

KI, I've gotta ask one thing here- If You've given Richie ample opportunity to discusss His side of things, then Where the heck is He? We've heard several times from his brother, and most of Us got an email from Him, but there's been no official discussion on this board. Have You lifted His suspension, or what? It's not like himk to remain so quiet on this board, where He's usually so vocal.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

His suspension has not been lifted, which seemingly is why he sent his brother to speak for him.

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Post by knightimmortal » Fri Sep 13, 2002 8:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Centaurus17:
<STRONG>If thats the case, why did you not point out Behemoth?. You did not feel that his arguments were aggressive? I thought that were a lot more then aggressive.. i'll leave it at that.

Personally i think this thread has gotten very out of hand. I think everyone here, including myself, needs to lay off a little on the posting of this thread. Its getting a bit out of control. The last thing i wanted to do was to fight with people.

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Centaurus17 ]</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you think that I had a chance to do anything with you and K.I.T.T. jumping in on it? Behemoth was sharing his views on one person, not attacking the entire board. Behemoth also does not make a constant practice of speaking out on every little thing.

Not to offend, but let the moderators do their jobs, please?

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Post by Centaurus17 » Fri Sep 13, 2002 8:25 pm

Ok then KI. Im not going to argue with you on this one. I really dont want this to go any further then it has already gone, so im attempting to end this right here. A lot of things were said and hopefully this will all stop now.

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Post by Skav » Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:06 pm

Right, first of all, K.I.T.T....i wasn't ignoring your comments. ya know what? its a friday night! and I have a social life! I don't stick around the net like some people do! I got things to do than take part, which I see, has progressively turned into petty arguing.

KI, sorry, BUT let me delve further into my comments on the fact that my distrust has taken place since you all have been appointed a mods.

What I mean is, I didn't mind mods being appointed.

But then I saw the moderating techniques of both you and Mike.

A for Behemoth, well, he has decided to back out as a moderator so I will not comment on him. He was good while he lasted!

There is you, KI, who has to dominate, take your job as if you are being paid a thousand bucks and having your opinions and thoughts as being right. ah ah...no no...that's not the way a mod should be. quite clearly, your "job" has gone to your head and you are obviously insecure to think that I am jumping over YOU, personally, when I made comments about the moderators. There IS more than one moderator, ya know.

Then there is Mike, who I feel should take more duty as moderator, and I am sad to see he isn't around as much to take care of things. But, saying that, I don't know his lifestyle. I don't know him! He probably has a lot of things to do. It's just my WISHFUL thinking he'd take a more active role as moderator.


Now.....let me say this...to sum up what I was meant to get across in the FIRST PLACE was that Mike should have received an email from Joe n Richie, or whoever, sent it. To me, it's being cowardly not to send Mike a copy of the email. It's SNIDY....OK??? If you are going to talk about him, send him a copy of the email too. He has, above the rest of us, the most right to receive a copy since it was about him...especially when it says to email him, like a BULLY, to tell him to withdraw his complaints so we can feed our own selfishness to get the book out.

No No....not right!

He should have recieved a copy of it like anyone else, so he can at least, offer his opinion. How would you like it if someone talked behind your back about you?? It's the SAME thing.

To me, Joe and Richie is being a coward not to send a copy of the email to Mike.

ohhhh...and it's not a personal dig to you KI...but I bet you received the email, didn't you? Just like Behemoth, former mod, did!

Why not Mike?

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Post by Michael Pajaro » Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:12 pm

Let me jump in here real quickly...

I have no problem with the fact that I was not on the mailing list for that message. Why should I be? I didn't email both authors, so why should they feel obligated to include me? As twisted as it sounds, that is completely fair to me.

However, it was inevitable that I would see a copy of it. I don't think anyone was trying to hide it from me; you can't hide a message from someone if you send it out to over 100 people.

So with all of the other topics that are flying around in this thread, I am absolutely comfortable with the fact that I was not copied on the mailing. That makes perfect sense to me, I was not surprised nor upset that I was not included. To me, that is a non-issue.

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Post by Skav » Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:14 pm

Oh, and another thing, given the special circumstances...and I do say it is special...Richie's ban should be lifted to give his side of the story. Here we are, raising controversy and arguing like rabbits, and we haven't even got the man, who is basically one of the people in the centre of it all, being given the chance to say something.

Wow, what a method to handle arguments.

If you ask me, lift the ban on Richie, even temporarily, so we can bring him into the picture to say something.

As the sheriff says in 'good day at white rock'...it "takes two to make an argument"!

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Post by Skav » Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:22 pm

LOL, Mike...I dunno wot to say to your way of thinking. I am very puzzled. I, sure as hell, would be angry.

Why do you need to email the authors? If they say something bad about someone, to me, they should say it to the person in focus!

Otherwise, it's just them running scared.

It's like saying to a 100 people to bully this one person with taunts to try to blackmail them to withdraw their complaint to get something out cos of their impatience and narrow mindness.

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Post by Michael Pajaro » Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:30 pm

Here's the distinction:

I am annoyed that the email exists in the first place.
I am NOT annoyed that it wasn't sent to me.

That's just the way these things play out. In terms of the big picture, my name not being included on a cc: list is nothing. I don't think it was cowardly, I don't think it was deceitful, it just "is".

Now the CONTENT of the message is another story and hopefully I'll be able to address some of those issues later.

Mike

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Post by knightimmortal » Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:30 pm

Ok, Skav.

First of all, we can't please everyone, and in particular, you. But here, let me tell you how I view you both as a moderator and a poster.

As Laura the poster: I don't trust you as far as I can throw you. You have a tendency of picking apart subjects that you know little about, and i dread replying to anything you post. I also fear posting anything, because I know you are going to come after me for it in some way or some how.

As Laura the moderator: Your vision of me as a dictator is really missppent, and seems to have stemmed from the one time that I corrected you on a term you stated, and has never stopped. You have always had an undertone of aggressiveness in your tone, and what you accuse me of, you, yourself display in large amounts.

I don't want to dominate, but I am not going to lay over and show you my belly when you are getting aggressive to prove your point. I have been wrong on many an occasion, and I prove it. I debate passionately about certain things I know, and have knowledge about. I don't treat this job as if I am being paid for it, I treat this job as if the community depended on it, and I take this community very seriously, right along with the person who is paying for this community. I don't think of it as my personal joke, nor do I believe that it is a playground for those who know nothing but to be aggressive. And if Mike had made any statements or complaints, I don't see you coming out of the woodwork to come out against them, but in short, I didn't think it was just about me. I said moderators multiple times, if you would choose to read, rather than leap. I also note that the largest amount of complaints are against me, not Mike. I also notice that you are calling me the same things that Mike, when he was being called a dictator. Nobody is ever going to be happy with being told that they are wrong, and are always going to say derogatory things about them, it seems.

The other thing that I do not appreciate is you applying terms and concepts to me that I have never stated, implied, or even motioned to. You have an active imagination, kindly do not apply it to me. (and to be fair, Mike or Neil, either.) I do not think that I am the only moderator. I do not want to dominate.

I am not arguing with you about Mike not receiving the email. But since he was the target focus of the complaint, most probably would have figured that he would not react well to it. And here is a little tidbit that you should most likely know before you continue to make that argument. Mike brought up the book complaint to Joe, not Richie. In fact, assured that Richie didn't know about the complaint until a few weeks ago, so once again, we are having the same old thing of an eye for an eye, that gets us in over our heads for their conflict.

In fact, I believe that Mike had every right to ask for the email on this board. But he should have separated the poster from the moderator, as was brought up to me from another poster, so that people wouldn't feel obligated to do it for a moderator, but from their own personal conscience.

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Post by Skav » Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:47 pm

*rolls eyes and sighs*...look...KI. May I suggest you re read your above statement. Most of it describes, you, you, you or 'me,'me','me'!

This, to me, is describing insecurity, as in the above statement, it seems you are assuming I am on a big vengeance to throw you off.

Get this, I am NOT attacking you personally. Hey....I don't agree with you most of the time about your method of thinking and doing things, but you know what? It's a personality clash.

I don't trust you either. Never have for a long time actually!

Oh, and here is something else, that yes, is personally going to be said to you: Even though you put it as 'Laura, the poster' I'd appreciate it if you made those personal comments directly to me and not in the public's eye. It's unethical, not to mention embarassing.

Come on MSN messenger and feel free to say it to me how you think of me but please refrain from telling it like it you view me in front of everyone.

That is NOT fair.

I've NOT once said how I view you as a PERSON on this forum...I've criticised your mod methods and way of thinking, strictly as being mod, but that's not going on a personal level and shouting about how horrible of a PERSON you are.

I happen to think you are a good person, actually! A likeable person. Just that I don't agree with the way you handle things as a mod but saying that, even that is not a personal dig, cos I don't agree with the way the mods in general have handled things since they were appointed.

There is Mike, who does not take an active enough role, IMO, as mod...there is behemoth who quit and then there is you.

I don't even want this damn thread to be about me. I REALLY REALLY hate it!!! But it seems, if I have to make an honest opinion, and just because I am not like everyone else who seems to agree with you for the sake of it, I get slammed.

Sorry, but that is tough.

I am, who I am, and I see things differently because I am an individual! I guess people hate individuals,huh?

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Post by Centaurus17 » Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:52 pm

This thread has gotten extremely out of hand. I attempted earlier to end this fight but understandably, there were opinions that were needed to be stated. KI, you asked me earlier to let the moderators do their job. Well i am asking the moderators here to attempt to control this topic. Come on everyone, lets post on the other threads on this board.

I know that there are still many more opinions and feelings that need to be shared, but i feel that it is only going to lead to more fighting and more statements that i know the poster will regret making later on.

Of course, i am not asking you to close this thread, but it has gotten to the point were no one is commenting on the topic, but only against other posters. I feel partially responsible for this as it was my comments that stirred a lot of this heat.

Im asking you guys to please keep the hostility down and to at least attempt to post on other topics on this board.

Again, im not trying to act like a moderator here and butt in where i dont belong, but i am seriously tired of all this bickering

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Post by Skav » Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:56 pm

I don't think you are to blame, Centaurus17, it was probably my comments that started it off.

No harm done by you.

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Post by knightimmortal » Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:59 pm

Wait, it is ok for you to to show the whole public what you think of me, but not for me to say it about you.

Double standards.

And you were saying all this stuff about me, and you keep turning these threads about me, so I am going to reply as me, because it is about me. I did include other people, including Mike, but once again, you keep right on slandering ME with your little side comments. You keep doing to me what you say I am doing to you. And you continue to do so.

I am not going to go to IM, because that is a practice in futility. You made your case here on the board to start with, and I am bringing myself to your level. You are the one who keeps trying to force your views on everybody else, including Mike himself who has already made his statement, and you keep right on going about how it is strange, and go on about Joe and Richie are being bullies.

And if you don't like me as a moderator, you don't like me as a person, because the decisions I make as a moderator are a reflection of me. You can't have it both ways.

Now, Skav, Mike, do i have your permission to shut down this thread? Or is there going to be contriversy about that if I do that too?

knightimmortal

P.S. Centaurus, if you don't like the thread, skip over it.

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Post by Centaurus17 » Fri Sep 13, 2002 10:01 pm

KI, i never said i did not like the thread

i have participated in the majority of this thread. I was merely concerned for the amount of hositlity and fighting that is involved here.

I would think you of all people would see what i am saying.

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Post by Michael Pajaro » Fri Sep 13, 2002 10:03 pm

Let me be the bad guy.

Closed.

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Post by Michael Pajaro » Sat Sep 14, 2002 12:45 am

The more I think abuot it, the more I realize it doesn't matter how I made the request.

I've been told that the book delay potentially puts the entire KR community at risk. If that's truly the case, then I think it's definitely the kind of situation where a moderator should see an original copy of a mass email that went out. The fact that my alleged actions happen to be the subject of the email puts a personal spin on it, but it's important both personally and as a moderator that I saw the message.

The other thing is I don't think I have the right to simply say "I'm not a moderator at the moment" and then post something that might be inappropriate if I was wearing my moderator hat. When I post a message, it doesn't just come from a member, or a moderator, or an engineer, or whatever. It comes from Michael Pajaro. And that means for better or for worse, every message I post is a reflection on me and at some level represents every role I play. The same goes for all of us.

I, Michael Pajaro, asked to see an email message. You may filter that request any way you like.

Thanks to those of you who have sent me copies. Originally I said I would delete this thread, but now that the thread has taken a few turns I don't want to be accused of abusing my power by deleting messages which put me in a negative light. So instead, I'll just edit my original request and leave the other messages intact. I believe that is a fair compromise.

Mike

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Michael Pajaro ]

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Post by neps » Sat Sep 14, 2002 2:13 am

I don't usual post my opinions on this board, because I've been trying to let the board work everything out. Sadly this doesn't seem to be working, and you are all taking it out on the wrongly. You may disagree with what Michael has done in the past week, but that has nothing to do with his skills as moderator. You should be respectful enough to let everyone tell their sides of the story and not listen to hear say. None of you know what went down, only they do. He, like many of us, has put countless and thankless hours into making this community successful. He is always putting together stills when you asked for them, or sound bytes when you missed that all important hasselhoff interview. please give him the benefit of defending himself first, you owe that much.

That said, I have all the faith and confidence of Michael as a moderator, and you should as well. He handles moderating in the same way I wish to have this board run. This board is not mine. it is not laura's, nor mike's. It should not have to be pampered when it gets upset. the community should be able to control itself enough to respect the people who contribute to it. Michael has shown enormous restraint in the past year. He has been attacked constantly for what he believes in, for what he does and for what he doesn't do. It isn't right. I'm amazed that he is still here. And I thank him for that.

personally I find it a bit on the side of ridiculous to make it a requirement for a moderator to post when they are acting as a moderator and when they are not. Moderator should act as a human first, it should only be understood that something is a requirement when moderator uses their big voice and say "STOP THIS NOW OR I WILL STRIKE UPON THEE WITH GREAT VENGENCE!"

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Post by ANDREWHEARNE » Sat Sep 14, 2002 3:55 pm

Mine is season one & two but did like season four.

[img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

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Post by knightimmortal » Sat Sep 14, 2002 4:09 pm

Season 3

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Post by CK » Sat Sep 14, 2002 4:21 pm

Absolutely season 4 [img]images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img]


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Post by Michael Pajaro » Sat Sep 14, 2002 4:31 pm

There is a temporary hold on purchasing the Knight Rider Legacy book. This is a timeline explaining the reason why.

This board takes copyright infringement very seriously. How many times has someone come to this board announcing a new webpage, only to be berated about using other peoples' photos and images without permission? One of the authors was particularly aggressive about it, often chastising people when they in fact DID have permission. I was scolded for using an image from Knight Registries, and a representative had to come to this board to verify that I had permission to use it. Paul at the Knight Rider archive was accused of stealing an image from one of the authors, even though Paul had a copy of the same photo and scanned it in himself. People who have been on the board a while have seen many other examples.

Key point: It is very clear that the authors understood how important it was not to use material without getting permission first, and they were almost militant in enforcing that belief on others even when it wasn't justified.

For the past year and a half or so, I have been asked repeatedly if I wanted to work on the Knight Rider Legacy book, specifically regarding the Team Knight Rider section. I repeatedly made it perfectly clear that I did not want to work with the authors. So instead, they simply copied material from my site in the book. This is not a question of having a few phrases which are similar to my writings. These are complex sentences, copied verbatim. They are not magazine articles or press releases which I happen to have on my website; they are my own personal writings. I am the author. I estimate there are several thousand words copied. I created a graphic showing an example of how my work was copied:
http://www.teamknightrider.com/misc/fallen-nation1.jpg

A big question seems to be how I found out about it, if I had vowed that I would never look at the book. It never occurred to me that the book would be available to browse online. Because I had no plans on buying the book, it seemed reasonable that I would never see it. I was not the one who discovered the copied material. I basically got a message saying "you should take a look at the Team Knight Rider section... they stole your webpage." At that point, yes, I was going to take a look.

In early August, I emailed Joe Huth and told him that I was a bit annoyed to see so much material copied from my website. I will let Joe speak for himself regarding how he felt or what his opinion was, but I would characterize him as being helpful and willing to come up with a solution to make things better. I told Joe that I wanted to contact iUniverse.com, the publisher, just to see what my rights and options were.

The next big question people seem to have is "why didn't you email both Joe and Richie?" The answer will sound a bit harsh: there was really no reason for me to even email Joe. I think at that point it was already a given that I was going to notify the publisher. But I emailed Joe to let off a little bit of steam, to find out if there were any outstanding circumstances I needed to know about, and also, believe it or not, as a sort of "heads up" of my intentions. I know that sounds cold, so let me explain by an analogy. You're 16 years old, and you're grounded. You ask your mother "can I go to the mall?" "No." "Can I go to the mall?" "No." "Can I go to the mall?" "No." So instead, you sneak out and go to the mall anyway. While there, you run into your father. You ask "since I'm already at the mall, can I stay for a movie?" Does he let you stay? No, he throws you in the car and takes you home.

That's similar to the situation I found myself in: "Can you help with the book?" "No." "Can you help with the book?" "No." "Can you help with the book?" "No." My writings get copied anyway, I find out about it, and I'm asked "well, since your work is already in the book can we just add your name to it?" I did not email Joe to negotiate a settlement. The time for negotiations had long passed.

I have absolutely no idea at what point Joe contacted Richie to let him know what was going on. My assumption is that it's a pretty serious issue and that Joe would have contacted his writing partner immediately. Joe may have chosen to simply handle it himself. That's an issue between Joe and Richie.

In mid-August, I called Joyce Greenfield of iUniverse.com to ask her what the process was for filing a copyright infringement claim. At this point I did not give her the name or subject of the book, or the authors names. She suggested I send her a package showing the alleged copied material. She told me "in cases like this, it's usually pretty clear-cut if there is a problem and if so, we will put a hold on the book until the parties come to an agreement, and then they can simply resubmit the book." That is not an exact quote, but she definitely used the term "clear cut" to explain when they would put a hold on a book.

The Knight Nationals were coming up in late August, and I knew the book was supposed to be available at the convention. I didn't want to be a complete jerk about everything, so I intentionally waited until after the Nationals before sending the package to Joyce. Apparently there was some problem or confusion at the convention because only 3 books were available for sale and people were disappointed that they couldn't pick up a copy. I don't know the entire story, but the limited number of books was not a result of the hold.

Joyce Greenfield emailed the authors and myself around August 28th to tell us that the book was removed from distribution temporarily.

I think it would be unprofessional for the authors to simply remove the entire Team Knight Rider section. Apparently they spent some time speaking with the cast and crew, and to simply dismiss them would be a bit rude. Also, if this truly is to be a complete guide to Knight Rider, it should have a Team Knight Rider section. My only request has been that the authors remove the sentences copied from my webpage, and replace them with their own words.

The book has not been killed. It will be re-released at some point, everyone will be able to buy it, and this delay will have no significance. I did not choose to stop publication of the book; I chose not to be walked over by the authors as I had been many, many times in the past. As have some of you. This entire situation could have been avoided had the authors done one very simple thing: not steal someone else's work.

Mike

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Post by March2875 » Sat Sep 14, 2002 4:46 pm

I happen to prefer the 4th season dash. That is the version Im going with for my Kitt replica. It would be nice to complete the conversion before the new movie comes out. I think it would be cool to take my Kitt replica to our local Drive Inn to see the new movie.

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The Knight Rider Legacy book saga

Post by jup » Sat Sep 14, 2002 6:13 pm

At this point, I just feel like I should tackle the responsibility for briefing up the TKR episode descriptions, sending it to Joe/Richie, just so the book can be put back into production ASAP.

BUT I AM NOT GOING TO...

I won't give in to that temptation of effort.

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The Knight Rider Legacy book saga

Post by KFCreator » Sat Sep 14, 2002 9:11 pm

Mike--Why did you refuse to help Joe and Richie with the TKR section of the book? We all know that Richie is not very well-liked by some members of this board but this was a project they poured their hearts and souls into. It seems to me that you let your own personal feelings and pride get the better of you in refusing to help them out. You don't always have to like who you work with in order to get the job done. Would it have been so hard and awful to have lended a hand in an act of goodwill in helping to create a book that we ALL have a huge interest in?

As for my own personal opinion about what Richie and Joe did, I do believe wholeheartedly that what they did was wrong if in fact they stole "copyrighted" material from you. You have a right over the material you create,just like I have a right over my designs for the new KITT car that are being considered for use in the new movie.I do think it was fair of you to let Joe and Richie re-word the parts of the book in question though, but I still question your original motives for not helping them when they came to you.

P.S. Semi-off topic, but when are you EVER going to update your site???

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