Who'd like the idea of having classic KR scenes modernized?

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Now that we are seeing DVD releases, would you want to have classic episode scenes that used horrible models updated with CGI versions?

Yes! I can't stand to see "plastic KITT" stealing the scene.
4
19%
No! The very notion of altering a single frame of an episode is blasphemous!
2
10%
No. The models are OK and get the job done.
3
14%
Maybe. Depends on if they make the CGI perfect.
8
38%
Maybe, if they could give me the option of watching it with the CGI or the models at my choice.
3
14%
You mean like how they reinvented Star Wars?
1
5%
Do or do not. I just don't care.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 21

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Who'd like the idea of having classic KR scenes modernized?

Post by jup » Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:04 am

i didn't think goliath returns had any real need for the truck other than breaking garthe out, smuggling a scientist doesn't really take a truck! and the production values were awful, not one proper stunt, even things not needing models were done with them. and how awful they looked! lol. i laughed at the sinking in the mud scene.

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This just had me wondering how popular an idea it would be if some classic, not-so-great scenes were redone by using our modern day CGI abilities to improve upon them.

Some people think that CGI is the ultimate cheat and destruction of special effects. But, there are also plenty of complaints about poorly done miniature effects to counter with. So, what's your opinion?

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Post by themarvelous3 » Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:06 am

out of three votes its either YES! or Maybe... i think it would be awesome. with our technology, if i had the resorces and money there were a few shows i always wanted to go back and redo the special effects on. the original Star Trek was one of them.

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Post by knightshade » Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:15 pm

I don't think the problem is so much using models and older special effects techniques, it's just that there obviously wasn't the time or budget to do them well. CGI can look like complete crap too if it isn't done well. I saw Underworld recently and was really impressed that all the werewolves were actually men in animatronic suits. But it really worked and I think worked better than anything they could have done with CGI. But they spent probably a boatload of money on making the effects perfect.

I think I'd almost rather see the KR special effects redone with models/etc but with a larger budget (not that that would happen of course, just a thought on my part). But I wouldn't mind seeing perfectly done CGI. What I wouldn't want to see was CGI that was not perfectly done or CGI that got distracting (like in the Star Wars updates where something in the background was suddenly stealing the scene).

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Post by knightendo » Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:34 pm

this is obviously just my personal opinion but i'm dead set against the idea of tinkering with old movies and television shows beyond cleaning them up and remastering them digitally, that is fine but altering it... no.

i never liked star wars but even i thought the idea of going back and redoing them was a bad one. if they ever, ever, ever thought of touching Jaws i'd scream!! lol!

leave them as they are, bad model shots and all, and enjoy them the way did first time around i say :)
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Post by Lost Knight » Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:39 pm

I hate the way CGI looks in most movies. There are a few exceptions where I thought the CGI looked very good though- some movies that come to mind are Terminator 3: Rise Of the Machines and Forrest Gump (nothing major there but the small effects looked real & convincing). I would have to agree with knightshade on this one, I would rather see models with a big budget...you can just always tell when a scene is CGI, with models, if it's shot properly, you could never tell.
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Post by Army_F_Body » Sat Oct 09, 2004 4:04 pm

Do it, but with an option to see the stuff as it appeared 20 years ago or as an update.

It's shame that the world will never know the original Star Wars Trilogy only the deluxe re-release(s). I even heard Lucas tweaked them further for the DVD release pasting Hayden's Anakin over Sebastian Shaw's Anakin. Kinda cool, but unforgivable at the same time.
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Post by cloudkitt » Sat Oct 09, 2004 4:31 pm

That may be true, Lost Knight, but I could ALWAYS tell when it was one of those stupid KR models. I hate those things...

Combinations are always really nice. Was it the Next Generation that was models that her heavily touched by my CG? something like that.

But anyone who doubts the cababilities of CGI, I strongly urge you to look at some screenshots of Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children.
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Post by FuzzieDice » Sat Oct 09, 2004 7:20 pm

Seeing stuff that Davilex is doing with the games, I wouldn't mind seeing computer generated K.I.T.T.'s in place of the models, if they do things right and the quality is better than using the models.

But then again, the DVDs are also a bit of nastalgia and in a way I would think that not using the models would take away from it somewhat. Even at that, I personally would rather the CGI than models if the graphics are good.

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Post by Skav » Sat Oct 09, 2004 7:25 pm

don't agree with CGI...its lazy and just a cheap way to create half arsed effects.

cgi is always noticeable when used to create major action sequences..if i want to watch graphics, i'll play a computer game.

my biggest fear is that they will use cgi for the new kr film, which is likely...and i aint gonna like it...it's ok if they use computer technology to wipe out the back seat driver but that's as far as i'd take it if i were to direct the film.
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Post by cloudkitt » Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:03 pm

I'm not saying they should use the CGI to replace the Turbo Boosts and stuff. KNowing that they used a real car for all that is so incredible when I'm watching it. It's just amazing. But CGI is much prefereable to those terribly hokey models.
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Post by ReddawgKnight » Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:14 pm

I would love to see certain CGI shots with like SPM or even jumping over chasms and so on instead of a model car.

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Post by KITTfan » Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:09 am

I don't like the idea of altering those scenes. It was done in the 80's with the technology available at the time and that's it.
Creating completely new Knight Rider tv-serie now is another thing because now there are the technology to create perfect effects in the first place.

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Post by Sith » Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:23 am

Skav wrote:don't agree with CGI...its lazy and just a cheap way to create half arsed effects.

cgi is always noticeable when used to create major action sequences..if i want to watch graphics, i'll play a computer game.
Got to disagree. If done well, some CGI looks as real as life itself.

And well done effects is not lazy film making at all. It takes a great deal of artistic skill to pull off a decent CGI effect, not to mentions months of animating and paintbrushing. You can't just 'bodge' it.

And by your theory, if I wanted to watch toy cars jumping over trains, I should buy a kids toy set. :P

Fact is, alot of the effects in Knight Rider look abysmal by today's standards. But they did the best they could at the time, and with the budget they had.

I'm sure CGI would look infintely better, however the cost of redoing all the effects shots would be too high in relation to the revenue that Universal would receive back.

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Post by knightendo » Sun Oct 10, 2004 10:10 pm

even if universal made millions upon millions from dvd kr, they better not touch the originals! iv seen some clips of star wars and it looks so bad having new effects mixed with an old movie! when making new movies SOMETIMES cgi can work incredibly well but if it doesn't it's woefull! and i mean more woeful than a bad model. don't ask why that is, it just is... a bad model is always more forgivable than bad cgi.

the newest james bond movie has AWFUL cgi in it, and look at the amount of money those films get thrown at them!! cgi should never replace real stunts. (and neither should that awful wire-fu fighting crap!)
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Post by cloudkitt » Sun Oct 10, 2004 10:14 pm

Sith wrote:
Skav wrote:don't agree with CGI...its lazy and just a cheap way to create half arsed effects.

cgi is always noticeable when used to create major action sequences..if i want to watch graphics, i'll play a computer game.
Got to disagree. If done well, some CGI looks as real as life itself.

And well done effects is not lazy film making at all. It takes a great deal of artistic skill to pull off a decent CGI effect, not to mentions months of animating and paintbrushing. You can't just 'bodge' it.

And by your theory, if I wanted to watch toy cars jumping over trains, I should buy a kids toy set. :P

Fact is, alot of the effects in Knight Rider look abysmal by today's standards. But they did the best they could at the time, and with the budget they had.

I'm sure CGI would look infintely better, however the cost of redoing all the effects shots would be too high in relation to the revenue that Universal would receive back.
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Post by krfan1 » Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:35 am

I choose the 'models are OK' and get the job done. Part of watching the series now that I'm older is the cheesiness of some of the scenes in the show.

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Post by Lost Knight » Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:39 am

Contrary to popular belief, CGI sequences are, in fact, very expensive. If you're going to use movies such as Final Fantasy for examples, I don't think they are quite the best examples because they are entirely CGI. If a move is completely CGI, yes, it can look quite amazing...actually I thought that movie Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within looked superb and some scenes actually looked as if it were real people.

The problems I have concerning CGI in other movies is that it is basically a graphic pasted on top of real sets, therefore things like shadowing, dimensions, and depth perception can become pretty tricky. The potential of CGI is limitless, but as of now I have yet to see a movie where I couldn't tell what was CGI and what wasn't. And it's not because of over-the-top Matrix-like scenes. Watch the movie Hulk...probably some of the most fake looking CGI I've ever seen, and producers spent months creating that character.

As for the models, if the budget is big enough, the "toy car" look can be easily hidden, and I would think it would be much cheaper and quicker using models for sequences than waiting months at a time during filming to perfect a split-second CGI shot. In the Star Wars re-releases, adding CGI characters in certain shots just looked plain fake and flat.

If CGI sequences were to be used, I think they should be used in very brief shots at certain angles...nothing long enough for people to be able to sit there and analyze. The trend in Hollywood nowadays is of course to use CGI because it's new technology and is just more convenient (despite the creative work involved). If you're going to have massive scenes in a movie, say Star Trek for example, then yes, CGI effects would probably be the way to go.

I guess it just depends on the movie. My personal opinion is that it should be avoided whenever possible because I think it's overused. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should. I think the general public is smart enough to realize that just because a movie has fancy special-effects, it doesn't make it a good flick.
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Post by Army_F_Body » Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:09 am

Look at the remake of Gone in 60 Seconds. The scene near the end where Eleanor jumps the bridge was a CG car. Looked pretty convincing to me.
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Post by Lost Knight » Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:33 am

It was a decent shot, but I could tell it was a CG car. I would have liked to have seen an actual stunt turbo boost personally...they did it so often in Knight Rider, I think applying a stunt like that in a bigger budget movie wouldn't have been too much of an issue if they could do it frequently on 80s series. I guess why risk a stunt man's life and destroy a car for a stunt if you can just apply some talent and work on it on a computer.
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Post by themarvelous3 » Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:46 am

Lost Knight wrote:Contrary to popular belief, CGI sequences are, in fact, very expensive. If you're going to use movies such as Final Fantasy for examples, I don't think they are quite the best examples because they are entirely CGI. If a move is completely CGI, yes, it can look quite amazing...actually I thought that movie Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within looked superb and some scenes actually looked as if it were real people.

The problems I have concerning CGI in other movies is that it is basically a graphic pasted on top of real sets, therefore things like shadowing, dimensions, and depth perception can become pretty tricky. The potential of CGI is limitless, but as of now I have yet to see a movie where I couldn't tell what was CGI and what wasn't. And it's not because of over-the-top Matrix-like scenes. Watch the movie Hulk...probably some of the most fake looking CGI I've ever seen, and producers spent months creating that character.

As for the models, if the budget is big enough, the "toy car" look can be easily hidden, and I would think it would be much cheaper and quicker using models for sequences than waiting months at a time during filming to perfect a split-second CGI shot. In the Star Wars re-releases, adding CGI characters in certain shots just looked plain fake and flat.

If CGI sequences were to be used, I think they should be used in very brief shots at certain angles...nothing long enough for people to be able to sit there and analyze. The trend in Hollywood nowadays is of course to use CGI because it's new technology and is just more convenient (despite the creative work involved). If you're going to have massive scenes in a movie, say Star Trek for example, then yes, CGI effects would probably be the way to go.

I guess it just depends on the movie. My personal opinion is that it should be avoided whenever possible because I think it's overused. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should. I think the general public is smart enough to realize that just because a movie has fancy special-effects, it doesn't make it a good flick.
did any of you SEE Jurassic Park when it came out? that T-Rex looked pretty damn real to me when it first tore through that fence. that was probably the most amazing scene i'd ever witnessed. perfect. it could be done and well. as long as it wasnt over-done. it has to be small because the show wasnt about special effects. it was about action, and friendship and helping people etc. they would have to be small. like now, some of the models are so bad they detract from the show.

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Post by Lost Knight » Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:06 pm

We could go on forever nitpicking countless movies that used CGI...I think the bottom line is that both methods could work well with a large enough budget and the right filiming techniques.
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Post by Michael Pajaro » Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:34 pm

I don't think the original episodes should be touched. Beyond the storylines, they are a snapshot of what television looked like in the 80s. "Modernizing" the scenes would be rewriting history.

Moving forward, I have no problem with a CGI car being used (sparingly) in the new movie. I want to see a continuous, unblocked shot of a complete turbo boost. You can't do that with a real car. Even if you were to use a ramp and digitally remove it later, the physics of the way the car reacted wouldn't be realistic.
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Post by FuzzieDice » Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:29 pm

Michael Pajaro wrote:I don't think the original episodes should be touched. Beyond the storylines, they are a snapshot of what television looked like in the 80s. "Modernizing" the scenes would be rewriting history.
You know now that I think about it, I think you're right. While it'd be nice I think it'd take away from the nastalgia. That's a good portion of owning the DVD sets - Nastalgia. :)

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Post by knightendo » Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:51 pm

some cgi will probs be used in the new movie, but if they can pull off turbo boosts that well in an 80s tv series they can do it now amazingly well without resorting to cgi. real stunt work should always come first, and in the case of knight rider cgi should only be used as a last resort i feel. just think about how far the industry has come since the original show, and how amazing a real turbo boost could look now! they could probably pull off some amazing things AND have us believe there's no ramp!!
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Post by FuzzieDice » Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:46 pm

Reminds me of the Pontiac stunt commercial recently that is on the internet where they take I think a GTO and it jumps onto a ferry.

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