something bugging me about Goliath Returns

[knightendo]

ok, remember back to the scene when devon and april see doctor bergstrum's double for the first time, ok? now remember what they say, when they questioned whether it would be possible to duplicate someone so closely that their family, those closest to them, would be fooled...?

well, that never bothered them when michael stuck a moustache on to his face to imitate garthe in the original goliath movie! and that was a major part of the original's storyline! it just bugged me the other day when i saw that part of goliath returns that the script writers would be inconsistant enough not remember this! sorry for the rant but there were FOUR writers!!

it's just been bugging me because goliath returns feels like a rushed cash-in from start to finish and i've always been disappointed by it, felt let down by the writers and producers (and director kolbe for using such awful models ALL the way through!) of my fave show.

[Matthew]

Personally I far prefer the superior storyline that 'Goliath Returns' brings to the table over 'Goliath'. It's what Goliath should have been in my opinion, although I must admit that I still love to sit and watch it.

What you've pointed out though is not as much of a flaw as you might think it is because Michael only needed to fool Elizabeth and Sombe for a short time so that he could plant the explosive device and disable Goliath so as to stop the Red Bluff raid. Once he had planted it, he would have simply gotten into Kitt and set it off whilst racing off into the distance. Dr. Bergstroms replacement however was a very different facsimile, as he was supposed to essentially take over the Dr's life so that nobody would come looking for him. This is why they brought up the point of him being able to fool the Dr's family.

From Matthew

[knightendo]

yeh but michael had to fool garthe's own mother, if anyone in the world is going to know its not garthe it'd be her, but they thought it'd be ok.

i didn't think goliath returns had any real need for the truck other than breaking garthe out, smuggling a scientist doesn't really take a truck! and the production values were awful, not one proper stunt, even things not needing models were done with them. and how awful they looked! lol. i laughed at the sinking in the mud scene.

sorry, i know its personal opinion and all, but hey that's what we're here for right? lol. i guess i just preferred the slowly untwisting mystery of the first goliath and the film itself just seemed better put together.

[Matthew]

yeh but michael had to fool garthe's own mother, if anyone in the world is going to know its not garthe it'd be her, but they thought it'd be ok.

i didn't think goliath returns had any real need for the truck other than breaking garthe out, smuggling a scientist doesn't really take a truck! and the production values were awful, not one proper stunt, even things not needing models were done with them. and how awful they looked! lol. i laughed at the sinking in the mud scene.

sorry, i know its personal opinion and all, but hey that's what we're here for right? lol. i guess i just preferred the slowly untwisting mystery of the first goliath and the film itself just seemed better put together.

Indeed it is. Afterall, the world would be a very boring place if we all liked the same things.

I must admit that you have a good point about Michael having to fool Garthe's mother, but Michael only intended to have the very briefest of contact that was possible with her had the plan gone smoothly, which of course it didn't, which in itself shows that it was a flawed plan. Although it was thought up by Michael on the spot, rather than having the benefit of months, if not years worth of planning like Adrienne and Garthe put into kidnapping and replacing Dr. Bergstom. I personally think that Garthe and Adrienne actually outsmarted Michael in this sense, because if they had just replaced Dr. Bergstrom with someone who had only undergone cosmetic surgery, he would have been found out straight away, rather than only being rumbled due to the facsimile not knowing about the injured ankle.

The production values are without a doubt one of the main letdowns that I do see with the episode, although since I enjoy it so much, I just tend to overlook them. Out of all the times we see a model Kitt, the mud scene was the most realistic looking time in my opinion. Although it was still obviously a model, it wasn’t as obvious as the exploding tanks and the Kitt with shiny wheel trims turbo boosting over them. I would guess that since it was so late in the season, they just didn’t have the budget to make the episode visually great. Also, did you notice that the model Goliath’s trailer had its wheels right against the rear bumper, whereas the real truck had them two to three feet into the trailer? Now that bugged me every time I saw it.

I also see the reason for not needing Goliath in the storyline. Despite the fact he was used effectively in the prison breakout, in the end he was only brought back as a ratings ploy, just as Garthe was, although I thoroughly enjoyed the scene where Michael rescued Dr. Bergstrom from the trailer, even though it was obviously very similar to the bullion raid in ‘Inside Out’.

From Matthew

[knightendo]

never noticed that about the wheels on the model goliath but i'm sure it'll annoy me now lol

yeh that scene rescuing the doctor was a a rip-off of the scene in inside out from season one, and was also too easy.

also, the end scene? is it just me or does it seem like it was edited together in the wrong order? i think michael and KITT were meant to shoot the grappling hook out first then turn away at the last second. the way it's edited together garthe had plenty of time to change course.

(and why couldn't they film goliath leaving a REAL shed? instead of a model one? lol)

[Michael Pajaro]

Personally I prefer Goliath Returns. I have to admit, the original has on the all-time greatest scenes of the entire series: the collision with KITT. But aside from that, it's kind of a slow-moving plot. The big payoff is at the one-hour mark, so there is no big finale. There are no turbo boosts. There is a lot of talking and setting up the plot but not enough action to carry it. Goliath Returns isn't as ambitious, but to me overall it's more in the spirit of what makes Knight Rider fun.

I have to disagree about Garthe not needing Goliath in the 2nd episode. Garthe's character is all about ego and power and that is embodied in Golitah. He loves the feeling of control when he's behind the wheel, and even gets perverse pleasure out of blowing the horn. In an abstract way Goliath IS Garthe, or at least the way Garthe sees himself.

[Matthew]

I have to disagree about Garthe not needing Goliath in the 2nd episode. Garthe's character is all about ego and power and that is embodied in Golitah. He loves the feeling of control when he's behind the wheel, and even gets perverse pleasure out of blowing the horn. In an abstract way Goliath IS Garthe, or at least the way Garthe sees himself.

I hadn't considered it from that perspective Michael, but now you mention it, you're absolutely right about Goliath being what Garthe sees himself as being. I vividly recall during the end sequence of Goliath Returns that he has a perverse smile on his face up until the point that Michael rescues Bergstrom, as Garthe feels completely invulnerable whilst he's behind Goliath's wheel, which leads me to the conclusion that Goliath is Garthe's manifestation of ultimate power. It took Michael taking an enormous risk to rescue Bergstrom for Garthe's feeling of ultimate power to be even remotely dented, which of course lead to Garthe’s power trip in an effort to rid himself of Michael’s presence in the world, even though that would have most likely led to Bergstrom’s death as well, which of course led Garthe quickly to his demise.

From Matthew

[knightendo]

yeh mike, i guess we could say goliath was an extension of garthe himself, he certainly referred to the truck as a person in the same way as michael does with KITT, even though goliath has no AI.

i like the slowly unravellling plot of the first film, a nice mystery and the pieces coming together bit by bit, i really liked the pacing of the film, felt like a proper movie instead of an extended episode. defo my fave

[Michael Pajaro]

i really liked the pacing of the film, felt like a proper movie instead of an extended episode.

I can definitely see that... Goliath DID have a different feel to it than just being a 2 hour episode.

[knightendo]

yeh, if you think about it, goliath returns, mouth of the snake, knight of the drones, and knight of the juggernaught all built up to a mid-film cliffhanger of sorts. goliath didn't build up to it in any noticeable way, the sudden impact between goliath and kitt was really unexpected as the film was just building pace... maybe that's another reason why the first "injury" (lol) against KITT and michael is such a shock...?

[djshag69]

speaking of golaith, i always wondered what april was gonna say to devon in the beginning of part 2, before she got cut off to a worn out almost passing out michael stumbling through the door.

[Skav]

opinion again, but i still prefer goliath returns, the ep has a more fun tone to it.

i don't mind watching eps/films that have slowly unravelling patterns and plots but once you know them, they wear out very quickly in terms of re-watchability.

plus i loved the car chase at the climax of GR. good stuff. don't care about the models, it was a children's 80's tv show. couldn't care less about that. it was very enjoyable, even though i agree with phil that there still wasn't any need for goliath.

but then films and shows bring devices back for no apparent reason other than to create enjoyment for the audience in senseless battles and chases.

and that's what kr is about...to me...apart from season 4 where they had to use sensible storylines to make up for the lack of stunts.

[Lost Knight]

and that's what kr is about...to me...apart from season 4 where they had to use sensible storylines to make up for the lack of stunts.

Being younger I preferred stunts & action. Now that I'm older and watch the show, I enjoy season 4 more for this reason, I like better storylines, I think it gives the show more depth and credibility, not that the first 3 seasons weren't great on their own.

[knightendo]

i think season three was the weakest plot-wise, it was decending into childish stories with lasers and gimmicks and too many sci-fi elements when kr was really meant to be a drama show with a difference. season four was a breath of fresh air after it.

[Skav]

knight in disgrace
knights of the fast lane
custom made killer
dead of knight
junkyard dog
buy out
knightlines
knight of the chameleon.....

they didn't involve lasers or gimmicks more so than any other episode in the series...there were a few like 'knight and knerd' and 'halloween knight' that were played for laughs but in general, i feel season 3 was still up to standard in terms of seriousness.

[knightendo]

yeh i know, i mean i like season three i really do, and some of my fave episodes are in there but i just don't feel it was as good as the other three. it kinda reminded me of season three of airwolf where they introduced some daft plot devices (though season four's voodoo knight and hills of fire introduced daft ones too).