KR prequel fan film proposal.

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Re: KR prequel fan film proposal.

Post by KITT » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:34 am

This would be really fun to shoot and/or edit.
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Re: KR prequel fan film proposal.

Post by Victor Kros » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:44 am

PunkMaister wrote:
knightofthephoenix wrote:Can we leave Charles Graiman and the rest of the KR08 mythology out of it?



I'm sorry but no this is not going to be a fanfilm to cater to the Purists TOS only crowd. Besides it is obvious that Wilton did not built and design the damn thing all by himself as he was an entrepreneur not an scientist. We know that Devon was not the one that designed it either as he just ran FLAG. Bonnie was basically just a mechanic that came in latter in the show as well so is not her either so you would have to basically invent an scientist that did it which is LAME!


Ok yeah, I'm going to have to correct you on this one. Wilton Knight was an inventor and an engineer, not just a entrepreneur (how do you think he made his money in the first place?) and he designed and manufactured advanced aircraft equipment (which is why the inside of the car looks like a aircraft cockpit along with the gullwing wheel). You can also clearly see some experimental aircraft in the Knight Industries hanger.

True he was too feeble to actually build K.I.T.T. himself and he did hire a TEAM that was made up of Dr. Von Voorman, Dr Breland and Dr. Numata as revealed in Season Three's Junk Yard Dog to assist. Devon was instructed by Wilton Knight to oversee the production of the Knight 2000 and K.I.T.T., he did not "just run FLAG". It's also clear Devon knew a great deal about K.I.T.T. and the car as demonstated when K.I.T.T. is first introduced to Michael. (the MBS demonstation and the test drive sequences)

Dr. Charles Graiman was a figment of David Andron's imagination and never existed in any capacity in the original series mythology. He was basically believed to be a unannounced member of the original team that is credited with building the Knight 2000 or K.I.T.T. and its enhancements in order to "bridge" the mythologies together. At least that's how I picture it based on Andron's explainations of him. It could be they threw out the other three scientists completely (or just didn't know about them) but then that would be clear revisionist history.

I am trying to operate under the more likable possibilities here...

These enhancements were so complex that Bonnie had to call back these scientists just to put K.I.T.T. and The Knight 2000 back together again in Junk Yard Dog. Clearly Bonnie knew a great deal about repairing K.I.T.T.'s AI as she has done so several times throughout the series but in a limited maintancence capacity. When K.I.T.T.'s AI was completely destroyed, she had to call for help to rebuild it from the ground up along with the car itself.

It is established in the original series that Wilton DID invent/design K.I.T.T. but it's also possible however cheap to claim that Charles physically constructed the A.I., however he DID NOT build nor design the original Knight 2000 (the Trans Am) which is what the backdoor pilot also implied - that Graiman built both K.I.T.T. and the Knight 2000. They don't seem to distinguish between the A.I. and the car.

If you want to go a step further in the episode Legion of Doom from Team Knight Rider, K.I.T.T.'s scanner was allegedly designed and created by Dr. Doug Key.

Seeing that there is no evidence that Graiman was ever around during the building of the ORIGINAL K.A.R.R. that wasn't a transforming mustang or a government pet project - you must conclude that the original team brought back in Junk Yard Dog built the Knight 2000 itself. This would place Charles after the K.A.R.R. malfunction fiasco as K.A.R.R. originally explains that Wilton Knight deactivated him, not Charles or anyone else. K.A.R.R. specifically says, "my creator Wilton Knight" just as the new K.A.R.R. explains, "I take orders from my creator, Dr. Charles Graiman." - This establishes that both K.A.R.R. AIs were also independent from one another.

You could however debate that the government found and rebuilt K.A.R.R.'s original CPU that survived in the desert (After K.I.T.T. vs. K.A.R.R.) but if you operate under that assumption, then you have to also accept that Charles knew about the AI's previous flaws (from Wilton Knight who would undoubtably tell Charles about the flaws of K.A.R.R.'s original programming) as K.A.R.R. specifically credits Graiman with creating him.

For whatever reason, somehow Charles was involved with the "new" version of K.A.R.R. that went crazy in Iraq. I really can't understand why a guy would be involved with a project he already knew went south once and then would rename the project with the same namesake as the flawed original. More sloppy writing and lack of research.

They COULD have explored this more in Knight to King's Pawn but like so many other opportunities they chose not to. Another more likely possibility is that Charles was somehow involved with the original team but purposely left in the dark/hidden away so that Devon would have someone to trust in should anything go wrong that his enemies didn't know about. I think this is highly cliche personally and a copout that this guy just so happens to be unknown enough to be entrusted with raising Michael's son in secret (and build advanced technology solely in his garage undetected) but hey, desperate times call for desperate connections in the face of a Writer's strike.

Since Dr. Charles Graiman is established as working for the Pentagon on several secret projects (Like whatever the hell Prometheus was) it's more likely Graiman was not on the original team, but rather working at the Pentagon when Wilton contacted him. I would assume since K.I.T.T. mentions first coming online either in Washigton or at the Pentagon (the episode name and exact quote escapes me for the moment but there's people in the car with him when he talks about it while in Washington - pretty sure it's a driving scene at night) it's more appropriate to convey that Graiman was busy working at the Pentagon while the K.A.R.R. fiasco was talking place and was approached after the fact by Wilton to correct things.

Setting aside my dislike for the flaws of this new series...

In either case, if you want a believable fan film do your research and try to follow what limited information there is as to where Charles would pop up into the picture given the current timeline they provide. This isn't so much about catering to Knight Rider purists as it is creating a concept that is accurate to both series mythologies.

It makes for stronger storytelling especially from a prequel P.O.V. and as such better believability because in the end it's all BS anyway.

It's no secret I do not agree with mixing up the new mythology with the original mythology and that is due to how sloppy and lazy the new mythology was constructed "to bridge" to the original. These are however my personal beliefs and I do not wish to hinder or discourage other people from doing what inspires them.

My position with respects to story development is creative guidance not a dictatorship.

Good luck and carry on.

=VK=
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Re: KR prequel fan film proposal.

Post by MKnight1984 » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:19 pm

The episode where KITT is descriping his time online in the pentagons mainframe was the first Goliath episodes... The doctor who gets kidnapped and replaced with a doppelganger is driving in KITT with Michael and the doctor is asking KITT questions and KITT gives the explanation that he was not a fan of the governments Bureacracy... And yea... lol...

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Re: KR prequel fan film proposal.

Post by Victor Kros » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:39 pm

MKnight1984 wrote:The episode where KITT is descriping his time online in the pentagons mainframe was the first Goliath episodes... The doctor who gets kidnapped and replaced with a doppelganger is driving in KITT with Michael and the doctor is asking KITT questions and KITT gives the explanation that he was not a fan of the governments Bureacracy... And yea... lol...


Thanks, my mind gets fuzzy with specifics at 4am in the morning. The episode is Goliath Returns and the line goes:

K.I.T.T.
Actually, I first went on-line in a main frame in Washington, but the government bureaucracy never suited me. Too stuffy.

Although he doesn't specifically say "Pentagon", I think it's implied.

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Re: KR prequel fan film proposal.

Post by Stealthwalker » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:34 pm

There are also needs to be a prequel done for Mike Tracuer to tell the origin story of who he was before inheritting his father's name and even a K.I.T.T. of his own. And the story would explain in detail his life with his mother, Dr. Graiman and Sarah and his stint with the military. The story would also show what really happened out in Iraq with K.A.R.R. and the people responsible with taking away Mike's memory of that event. And I think that the end of the story would be at or near the time period where the KR08 Pilot begins.
I think that this story should be done because even though there were brief references made about Mike's past by Mike himself, Dr. Graiman and even Sarah, the series and even the pilot never went into great or elaborate detail to highlight his past and I think that it would be necessary to tell the story of Mike before he became the new "Knight Rider". :good: :kittspin: :spm:
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Re: KR prequel fan film proposal.

Post by PunkMaister » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:35 pm

Victor Kros wrote:Ok yeah, I'm going to have to correct you on this one. Wilton Knight was an inventor and an engineer, not just a entrepreneur (how do you think he made his money in the first place?) and he designed and manufactured advanced aircraft equipment (which is why the inside of the car looks like a aircraft cockpit along with the gullwing wheel). You can also clearly see some experimental aircraft in the Knight Industries hanger.


Hi there V.K glad to see you finally decided to drop by for a bit of insight and feedback now that being said...

1. It may come as a surprise but Entrepreneurs do make money without necessarily being scientists or engineers.

2. The very fact that Knight industries made advanced avionics also point to the fact that they most likely did have contracts with the military just as Boeing and Lockheed Martin does I see no reason to obviate that out simply because in the TOS that connection was not made clear. As I also see no reason for anybody to come up with autonomous robot built on a car at first other than for some type of military venture and in fact as I recall wilton did not want the technology built into KITT to go to the military and be used as a weapon, probably because of the KARR fiasco

Victor Kros wrote:True he was too feeble to actually build K.I.T.T. himself and he did hire a TEAM that was made up of Dr. Von Voorman, Dr Breland and Dr. Numata as revealed in Season Three's Junk Yard Dog to assist. Devon was instructed by Wilton Knight to oversee the production of the Knight 2000 and K.I.T.T., he did not "just run FLAG". It's also clear Devon knew a great deal about K.I.T.T. and the car as demonstated when K.I.T.T. is first introduced to Michael. (the MBS demonstation and the test drive sequences)

Dr. Charles Graiman was a figment of David Andron's imagination and never existed in any capacity in the original series mythology. He was basically believed to be a unannounced member of the original team that is credited with building the Knight 2000 or K.I.T.T. and its enhancements in order to "bridge" the mythologies together. At least that's how I picture it based on Andron's explainations of him. It could be they threw out the other three scientists completely (or just didn't know about them) but then that would be clear revisionist history.


Or that he worked on the robotics and AI separately and then the CPU and all else was integrated by those 3 scientists in the TOS...


Victor Kros wrote:I am trying to operate under the more likable possibilities here...

These enhancements were so complex that Bonnie had to call back these scientists just to put K.I.T.T. and The Knight 2000 back together again in Junk Yard Dog. Clearly Bonnie knew a great deal about repairing K.I.T.T.'s AI as she has done so several times throughout the series but in a limited maintancence capacity. When K.I.T.T.'s AI was completely destroyed, she had to call for help to rebuild it from the ground up along with the car itself.

It is established in the original series that Wilton DID invent/design K.I.T.T. but it's also possible however cheap to claim that Charles physically constructed the A.I., however he DID NOT build nor design the original Knight 2000 (the Trans Am) which is what the backdoor pilot also implied - that Graiman built both K.I.T.T. and the Knight 2000. They don't seem to distinguish between the A.I. and the car.


Here is the thing none of those scientists in the TOS specialized in Robotics or Artificial intelligence which is what Grayman specializes on.


Victor Kros wrote:If you want to go a step further in the episode Legion of Doom from Team Knight Rider, K.I.T.T.'s scanner was allegedly designed and created by Dr. Doug Key.


Interesting but I would rather not touch anything related to TKR even with a 10 foot pole (Yech!)

Victor Kros wrote:Seeing that there is no evidence that Graiman was ever around during the building of the ORIGINAL K.A.R.R. that wasn't a transforming mustang or a government pet project - you must conclude that the original team brought back in Junk Yard Dog built the Knight 2000 itself. This would place Charles after the K.A.R.R. malfunction fiasco as K.A.R.R. originally explains that Wilton Knight deactivated him, not Charles or anyone else. K.A.R.R. specifically says, "my creator Wilton Knight" just as the new K.A.R.R. explains, "I take orders from my creator, Dr. Charles Graiman." - This establishes that both K.A.R.R. AIs were also independent from one another.

The thing is there is no compelling reason to build something like KARR at first other than some military project that went astray.

Victor Kros wrote:You could however debate that the government found and rebuilt K.A.R.R.'s original CPU that survived in the desert (After K.I.T.T. vs. K.A.R.R.) but if you operate under that assumption, then you have to also accept that Charles knew about the AI's previous flaws (from Wilton Knight who would undoubtably tell Charles about the flaws of K.A.R.R.'s original programming) as K.A.R.R. specifically credits Graiman with creating him.


That could be explained with the fact that new version of KARR was indeed designed from the ground up by Grayman unlike the Add hoc way the original KARR and then KITT were built. It also makes perfect sense that the government next time around exerted a more direct control of the construction of the new KARR to avoid a repeat of what happened with the first one in which Wilton simply pulled the plug. And again as I posted earlier the firts KARR and KITT were built ADD-HOC style with many scientists doing the different components but not any of the 3 of them in the TOS specialized in either Robotics or Artificial intelligence. Dough Key for example specialized in miniaturizing sensor equipment. The other 2 in the MBS and systems integration dept. Man have I got a knack to build backgrounds out of thin air or what? :mrgreen:


Victor Kros wrote:For whatever reason, somehow Charles was involved with the "new" version of K.A.R.R. that went crazy in Iraq. I really can't understand why a guy would be involved with a project he already knew went south once and then would rename the project with the same namesake as the flawed original. More sloppy writing and lack of research.

Probably at that point he was convinced he could fix the problems that plagued the first KARR he was off course proven tragically wrong...

Victor Kros wrote:They COULD have explored this more in Knight to King's Pawn but like so many other opportunities they chose not to. Another more likely possibility is that Charles was somehow involved with the original team but purposely left in the dark/hidden away so that Devon would have someone to trust in should anything go wrong that his enemies didn't know about. I think this is highly cliche personally and a copout that this guy just so happens to be unknown enough to be entrusted with raising Michael's son in secret (and build advanced technology solely in his garage undetected) but hey, desperate times call for desperate connections in the face of a Writer's strike.

Since Dr. Charles Graiman is established as working for the Pentagon on several secret projects (Like whatever the hell Prometheus was) it's more likely Graiman was not on the original team, but rather working at the Pentagon when Wilton contacted him. I would assume since K.I.T.T. mentions first coming online either in Washigton or at the Pentagon (the episode name and exact quote escapes me for the moment but there's people in the car with him when he talks about it while in Washington - pretty sure it's a driving scene at night) it's more appropriate to convey that Graiman was busy working at the Pentagon while the K.A.R.R. fiasco was talking place and was approached after the fact by Wilton to correct things.


Again as pointed out he is the only one that we know that specifically specializes in Robotics and Artificial intelligence again, the only reason for anyone at first to come up with the idea to built a damn autonomous robot on a car would be the military and given KARRs adorable personality at first the project must have been military in nature.

Victor Kros wrote:Setting aside my dislike for the flaws of this new series...

In either case, if you want a believable fan film do your research and try to follow what limited information there is as to where Charles would pop up into the picture given the current timeline they provide. This isn't so much about catering to Knight Rider purists as it is creating a concept that is accurate to both series mythologies.


And I thank you inmensely for your feedback because know we know about the rest of the Scientist team that made first KARR and then KITT a reality but again as pointed out since none of those 3 have the specialization that Grayman has he should not and must not be left out...

Victor Kros wrote:It makes for stronger storytelling especially from a prequel P.O.V. and as such better believability because in the end it's all BS anyway.

It's no secret I do not agree with mixing up the new mythology with the original mythology and that is due to how sloppy and lazy the new mythology was constructed "to bridge" to the original. These are however my personal beliefs and I do not wish to hinder or discourage other people from doing what inspires them.

My position with respects to story development is creative guidance not a dictatorship.

Good luck and carry on.

=VK=
:dash:


I agree that the new show's way to bridge things was sloppy something which I'm trying to correct as much as possible with this fanfilm not that it matters much as it will never be canon well except maybe in the hearts of the fans... :mrgreen:

And I never had a beef with you V.K :good: but with those that said that the project should be canned just because you or anyone else happened not to like it! Is akin to you making a great sculpture and just about everyone that sees it likes it and says how cool and great it looks and then some one else goes and says they do not like it for whatever reason and another individual who was working with you to put the thing together immediately goes and smashes it because of that one or few person(s) opinion! That would tick off anyone! :)


Stealthwalker wrote:There are also needs to be a prequel done for Mike Tracuer to tell the origin story of who he was before inheritting his father's name and even a K.I.T.T. of his own. And the story would explain in detail his life with his mother, Dr. Graiman and Sarah and his stint with the military. The story would also show what really happened out in Iraq with K.A.R.R. and the people responsible with taking away Mike's memory of that event. And I think that the end of the story would be at or near the time period where the KR08 Pilot begins.
I think that this story should be done because even though there were brief references made about Mike's past by Mike himself, Dr. Graiman and even Sarah, the series and even the pilot never went into great or elaborate detail to highlight his past and I think that it would be necessary to tell the story of Mike before he became the new "Knight Rider". :good: :kittspin: :spm:



Well first things first, if this thing is successful then maybe just maybe something like that can be worked out...

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Re: KR prequel fan film proposal.

Post by knightofthephoenix » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:21 pm

PunkMaister wrote:
knightofthephoenix wrote:Can we leave Charles Graiman and the rest of the KR08 mythology out of it?



I'm sorry but no this is not going to be a fanfilm to cater to the Purists TOS only crowd. Besides it is obvious that Wilton did not built and design the damn thing all by himself as he was an entrepreneur not an scientist. We know that Devon was not the one that designed it either as he just ran FLAG. Bonnie was basically just a mechanic that came in latter in the show as well so is not her either so you would have to basically invent an scientist that did it which is LAME!


Charles Graiman and Mike Traceur were characters created by a sloppy writer (David Andron) who didn't want to bother reviewing the vast amount of mythology TOS had established. Just think about how many shows (and other franchises) that have less content that what Andron could have worked with when establishing the new KR.

No offense, but if the new show is really cancelled as it now appears, it's all the more reason to not view any of it as canon.

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Re: KR prequel fan film proposal.

Post by PunkMaister » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:45 pm

knightofthephoenix wrote:
PunkMaister wrote:
knightofthephoenix wrote:Can we leave Charles Graiman and the rest of the KR08 mythology out of it?



I'm sorry but no this is not going to be a fanfilm to cater to the Purists TOS only crowd. Besides it is obvious that Wilton did not built and design the damn thing all by himself as he was an entrepreneur not an scientist. We know that Devon was not the one that designed it either as he just ran FLAG. Bonnie was basically just a mechanic that came in latter in the show as well so is not her either so you would have to basically invent an scientist that did it which is LAME!


Charles Graiman and Mike Traceur were characters created by a sloppy writer (David Andron) who didn't want to bother reviewing the vast amount of mythology TOS had established. Just think about how many shows (and other franchises) that have less content that what Andron could have worked with when establishing the new KR.

No offense, but if the new show is really cancelled as it now appears, it's all the more reason to not view any of it as canon.


In my previous post in response V.K I've already established what we intend to do and not and I'm not gonna go through it again. Second of all even if a show that is part of a franchise is canceled is still official canon no matter how much you say otherwise I cannot ignore that Dr Doug Key was the one that created the miniaturized sensor array that KITT2K uses (as established in T.K.R) and was latter on used alson on KIT3K with some miscelaneous upgrades and so on. The same can be said of KR08 so no sorry.

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Re: KR prequel fan film proposal.

Post by Stealthwalker » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:08 pm

Stealthwalker wrote:There are also needs to be a prequel done for Mike Tracuer to tell the origin story of who he was before inheritting his father's name and even a K.I.T.T. of his own. And the story would explain in detail his life with his mother, Dr. Graiman and Sarah and his stint with the military. The story would also show what really happened out in Iraq with K.A.R.R. and the people responsible with taking away Mike's memory of that event. And I think that the end of the story would be at or near the time period where the KR08 Pilot begins.
I think that this story should be done because even though there were brief references made about Mike's past by Mike himself, Dr. Graiman and even Sarah, the series and even the pilot never went into great or elaborate detail to highlight his past and I think that it would be necessary to tell the story of Mike before he became the new "Knight Rider". :good: :kittspin: :spm:



Well first things first, if this thing is successful then maybe just maybe something like that can be worked out...[/quote]

It's cool, and good luck with this project. :good: :kittspin:
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Re: KR prequel fan film proposal.

Post by knightofthephoenix » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:10 pm

PunkMaister wrote:[In my previous post in response V.K I've already established what we intend to do and not and I'm not gonna go through it again. Second of all even if a show that is part of a franchise is canceled is still official canon no matter how much you say otherwise I cannot ignore that Dr Doug Key was the one that created the miniaturized sensor array that KITT2K uses (as established in T.K.R) and was latter on used alson on KIT3K with some miscelaneous upgrades and so on. The same can be said of KR08 so no sorry.


Actually, no. When something's established in TOS like Wilton Knight inventing and designing K.I.T.T. with the help of Dr. Von Voorman, Dr. Breland and Dr. Numata or Michael Knight not having children (at least through 1986), THAT is official canon.

That’s not what “the Purist TOS only crowd” would say; it’s what the original show that every one of these KR spinoff/reboots has been based off has said.

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Re: KR prequel fan film proposal.

Post by PunkMaister » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:26 pm

knightofthephoenix wrote:
PunkMaister wrote:[In my previous post in response V.K I've already established what we intend to do and not and I'm not gonna go through it again. Second of all even if a show that is part of a franchise is canceled is still official canon no matter how much you say otherwise I cannot ignore that Dr Doug Key was the one that created the miniaturized sensor array that KITT2K uses (as established in T.K.R) and was latter on used alson on KIT3K with some miscelaneous upgrades and so on. The same can be said of KR08 so no sorry.


Actually, no. When something's established in TOS like Wilton Knight inventing and designing K.I.T.T. with the help of Dr. Von Voorman, Dr. Breland and Dr. Numata or Michael Knight not having children (at least through 1986), THAT is official canon.

That’s not what “the Purist TOS only crowd” would say; it’s what the original show that every one of these KR spinoff/reboots has been based off has said.


I got an idea why don't you make a separate fanfilm of your own to cater exclusively to your own tastes. And this what CANON means in case you forgot and NO it does not preclude any spinoffs of a franchise as not being CANON based on the sole fact that you do not like them. I will agree that Bruening is a bit old to be playing Michael Knight Sr's son as if anything he should be in his early 20's and not late 20's or 30's...

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