Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by PunkMaister » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:51 pm

Lynda414 wrote:Shhh! They haven't yet. Don't give them any ideas!


Common you and I know that that is something they could never, ever get away with on mainstream commercial television if this show was in HBO or Showtime then that and more would be a possibility but not in it's current medium. :mrgreen:

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by Lynda414 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:57 pm

I think they could definitely sink lower than they have already, and I don't want to give them any ideas. I don't even want them talking about see-through bikinis.

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by PunkMaister » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:05 pm

Lynda414 wrote:I think they could definitely sink lower than they have already, and I don't want to give them any ideas. I don't even want them talking about see-through bikinis.


Well you keep missing my point which is that they can't period!
And what do you mean by talk anyway? That they would somehow add that to a dialogue in the script? That would be utterly ridiculous if they did. Man I'm considering suing some fellow members for giving me a notion about Sarah I know we cannot ever have! Darn you all! :mrgreen: :twisted: :mrgreen:

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by Lynda414 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:03 pm

PunkMaister wrote:
Lynda414 wrote:I think they could definitely sink lower than they have already, and I don't want to give them any ideas. I don't even want them talking about see-through bikinis.


Well you keep missing my point which is that they can't period!
And what do you mean by talk anyway? That they would somehow add that to a dialogue in the script? That would be utterly ridiculous if they did. Man I'm considering suing some fellow members for giving me a notion about Sarah I know we cannot ever have! Darn you all! :mrgreen: :twisted: :mrgreen:


They can't show them on a PERSON. I can totally see Mike going through Sarah's things and finding one though. Or maybe Zoe...

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by PunkMaister » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:09 pm

Lynda414 wrote:They can't show them on a PERSON. I can totally see Mike going through Sarah's things and finding one though. Or maybe Zoe...


OK now you are just fishing and honestly for no good reason since they did improve things a lot in the last episode and there is no evidence to suggest that they will revert back, Frankly I do mind them showing off a little skin every now and then, the old show did that brilliantly and measured and there is no reason that they could do the same.

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by Lynda414 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:16 pm

PunkMaister wrote:
Lynda414 wrote:They can't show them on a PERSON. I can totally see Mike going through Sarah's things and finding one though. Or maybe Zoe...


OK now you are just fishing and honestly for no good reason since they did improve things a lot in the last episode and there is no evidence to suggest that they will revert back, Frankly I do mind them showing off a little skin every now and then, the old show did that brilliantly and measured and there is no reason that they could do the same.


Hehe, okay, you got me. I am just having fun at this point. The show has gotten better. I will admit that I am a little worried that it might slip back down to what it once was, but I do feel fairly optimistic.

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by jshorva65 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:23 pm

Mr.Marcus wrote:Being a secure male who isn't persuaded by what society says I should be attracted to, I can't help by eye roll whenever a girl like Sarah beats up 3 guys. All my exes and my current gf can't do completed tasks without making it a dramatic production and/or crying about it. 10 page papers used to send one of my exes into a full blown crying session. All the woman in my life have needed my help to fix their car, open a jar, kill a rat, etc. Its hard for me to accept a woman like Sarah beating up multiple guys without any help when I know this is very rare in reality. Keep that stuff on Smallville, not on KR which is supposed to be for my gender.


Somewhere in between the extremes would be best. Much more realistic. I personally have encountered too many of those "militant feminist" types. One made the mistake of gloating that her hourly wage was higher than mine and claimed that my profession was somehow less worthwhile than hers, and using that as a means to attempt to break my spirit rather than recognize that the lower-paying job I had then was only a temporary step along the way to something much more. She sure became quite the weepy mess (bordering on stalker) when I landed my dream job and sent her packing. Call it poetic justice.

No, I don't find it "sexy" for a woman to make a habit of picking fights. I find Zoey's "female supremacist" attitude in need of an adjustment. "Helpless" women are also not my idea of attractive. I guess Sarah's character seems to show a somewhat realistic combination of strength and vulnerability. And, yes, the guy she punched out at the bar in Knight to Kings Pawn had crossed a line or two and deserved to be decked.

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by blowersho » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:17 pm

The pilot Sarah was a far better character, smart, pretty and hardly a damsel in distress, near the end she grabbed a weapon and went to save her father.

Now she looks like she spends 3 hours getting ready and beats up men. She beat up a guy because he was interested in her and from what I remember was not being rude, is this what they want to teach the young ladies out there that violence is the answer.

She is the perfect example of the modern " I am woman hear me roar " character that pseudo feminist's like to shove down our throats all the time and I for one am sick of it, also I knew exactly what was in store for her character when I heard she was taking fighting lessons and I was right on the money.

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by NeoRanger » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:30 pm

She beat up a guy because he was interested in her and from what I remember was not being rude, is this what they want to teach the young ladies out there that violence is the answer.

You don't remember well. The guy was coming on to her pretty aggressively. I'm the first to bitch whenever a woman is given free pass to raise her hand in a situation where a guy would've been marred as a "woman beater", but in this particular situation the guy had moved on to "touching". Without provocation.


By the way, I fail to see how Sarah from the backdoor pilot was a better character. She was hardly a character at all. She wasn't low-key and nice and shy, she was just... there. That was her entire job in those two hours, to just... be... there.

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by blowersho » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:47 pm

Fair enough, instead of better she was a more realistic character, for me anyways. I know many feisty, beautiful, intelligent ladies, I don't however know any dolled up ninja's and that's what they want us to accept.

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by Sue » Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:04 pm

jshorva65 wrote:Somewhere in between the extremes would be best. Much more realistic. I personally have encountered too many of those "militant feminist" types. One made the mistake of gloating that her hourly wage was higher than mine and claimed that my profession was somehow less worthwhile than hers, and using that as a means to attempt to break my spirit rather than recognize that the lower-paying job I had then was only a temporary step along the way to something much more. She sure became quite the weepy mess (bordering on stalker) when I landed my dream job and sent her packing. Call it poetic justice.

No, I don't find it "sexy" for a woman to make a habit of picking fights. I find Zoey's "female supremacist" attitude in need of an adjustment. "Helpless" women are also not my idea of attractive. I guess Sarah's character seems to show a somewhat realistic combination of strength and vulnerability. And, yes, the guy she punched out at the bar in Knight to Kings Pawn had crossed a line or two and deserved to be decked.


Okay okay, let’s try to keep the focus on the character and not broad generalizations. I admit I am only human and have stereotyped groups myself. But I also realize that it was a wrong and hurtful thing for me to do. Somehow I don’t imagine when RC3 was brought in, that the discussion swung towards those “militant civil rights types.” Or how as a white male majority you would prefer to see a white character behind the wheel of KITT and African Americans should be sitting in the back seat.
For the most part I think this thread has been a really great discussion and a lot of good points have been made. I’m hoping we can keep it going without it turning into an all out battle of the sexes. I think that actually we might all agree on some of the points being made about Sarah’s roll in the show. But I think it would be easier to agree on them if they were phrased with a little more care. Also it would be nice if women could be judged on a little bit more than whether or not they are sexy.
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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by Mr.Marcus » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:36 pm

jshorva65 wrote:
Mr.Marcus wrote:Being a secure male who isn't persuaded by what society says I should be attracted to, I can't help by eye roll whenever a girl like Sarah beats up 3 guys. All my exes and my current gf can't do completed tasks without making it a dramatic production and/or crying about it. 10 page papers used to send one of my exes into a full blown crying session. All the woman in my life have needed my help to fix their car, open a jar, kill a rat, etc. Its hard for me to accept a woman like Sarah beating up multiple guys without any help when I know this is very rare in reality. Keep that stuff on Smallville, not on KR which is supposed to be for my gender.


Somewhere in between the extremes would be best. Much more realistic. I personally have encountered too many of those "militant feminist" types. One made the mistake of gloating that her hourly wage was higher than mine and claimed that my profession was somehow less worthwhile than hers, and using that as a means to attempt to break my spirit rather than recognize that the lower-paying job I had then was only a temporary step along the way to something much more. She sure became quite the weepy mess (bordering on stalker) when I landed my dream job and sent her packing. Call it poetic justice.

No, I don't find it "sexy" for a woman to make a habit of picking fights. I find Zoey's "female supremacist" attitude in need of an adjustment. "Helpless" women are also not my idea of attractive. I guess Sarah's character seems to show a somewhat realistic combination of strength and vulnerability. And, yes, the guy she punched out at the bar in Knight to Kings Pawn had crossed a line or two and deserved to be decked.


Look, if you want to show a girl defend herself that's fine. My issue is with the gratuitous female on male violence just for the purpose of showing a girl kick a guy's ass.

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by Mr.Marcus » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:44 pm

Lynda414 wrote:
Mr.Marcus wrote:
Lynda414 wrote:I agree mostly with lunchmeat. Sarah knowing self-defense is not a bad thing. I think she's overdone it in past episodes. I notice that she tends to pick fights. She definitely needs to be more mature than that if she wants to run FLAG.

And I think I have to disagree with Mr. Marcus on one point. Watching a hot girl beating up a bunch of guys is not really the female fantasy. Most girls, straight ones, like to fantasize about guys being the hero. It's a dated concept, yeah, but it's in our genes. And I've talked to a few guys about this and they all say that a hot, ass-kicking gorl is hot. So I think that Sarah really does cater to the male demographic.

I do agree with Mr Marcus that the angst has to go. But you don't have to sacrifice the relationship in order to get rid of the angst. Just downplay the whole relationship thing. Don't even mention it in a few eps. I think the only relationship that should have a lot of focus is between Mike and KI3T. Sarah should be helping that along instead of KI3T plaguing Michael with questions about Sarah and spying on the two of them with Billy and Zoe. That definitely has to go.

It's all about the car, really. For me anyway.


I dispute that. Men more than ever are being told what they should like, what they should do, how they should behave. We've been groomed to believe the strong butt kicking woman is a sexual ideal. Sadly, most guys don't question this and will follow anything to get tail. So its an accepted norm today. Lots of guys find the butt kicking girl who talks down to them, hot. I'm not saying your friends are wrong, I think they 100% believe in what they've told you but realize its a product of social conditioning. Much like how the Romans thought the ideal woman was one who stayed out of politics, business, war and spun on her loom all day.

Being a secure male who isn't persuaded by what society says I should be attracted to, I can't help by eye roll whenever a girl like Sarah beats up 3 guys. All my exes and my current gf can't do completed tasks without making it a dramatic production and/or crying about it. 10 page papers used to send one of my exes into a full blown crying session. All the woman in my life have needed my help to fix their car, open a jar, kill a rat, etc. Its hard for me to accept a woman like Sarah beating up multiple guys without any help when I know this is very rare in reality. Keep that stuff on Smallville, not on KR which is supposed to be for my gender.


I think that the reason you find yourself around women that are helpless, is because you have been conditioned to be attracted by that sort of woman. How old were you when you watched TOS? I'm only saying that watching MK Sr saving the damsel in distress every week might have affected you and you don't realize it.

And of course not every girl should be able to take on three guys. But it's a dangerous world out there, basic self defense is nearly a must. I do have a problem with Sarah picking fights, but I don't think she should be completely useless.

And yes, I have the BF open the jars and kill the spiders, but he likes being useful. I also don't turn into a sobbing wreck when he's not around to do those things for me though.


I'm not saying she should be completely useless. But they need to get rid of the gratuitous female on male violence. Not only is it unrealistic and laughable it doesn't move the story.

I'm attracted to beautiful women. The women who look like they can kick a guy's ass aren't attractive and they certainly don't look like Deanna Russo. I know women like that do exist but they are rare and I've never encountered them during my existence.

I've dated all kinds of women. Ironically, the most professional successful women I've dated were the most helpless ones I've ever met. It seems the strong, independent visage was just a facade and underneath the academic degrees and feminist rhetoric lay an insecure soul. In my experience at least, education and career success has nothing to do with a woman's strength. Rather, it seems their lack of philosophical thought and reliance on the pursuit of materialism and competing with their friends led to unrealistic, unfulfilled expectations that promoted helplessness.

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by neps » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:19 pm

:o - Wow. Single handily insulting every single woman on the planet. Good luck to who ever marries you...

I'm so flabbergasted by your post that I'm speechless!

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by weeezl » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:38 pm

:shock:

quoting M "A sexist, misogynist dinosaur"

neps wrote: Good luck to who ever marries you...


Surely you mean pity?

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by PunkMaister » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:19 am

neps wrote::o - Wow. Single handily insulting every single woman on the planet. Good luck to who ever marries you...

I'm so flabbergasted by your post that I'm speechless!


Seconded... Me thinks M needs some therapy or something. WOW! :o :shock: :o

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by Sky_Blue_Civic » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:45 am

In case some of you didn't know...I'm an example of one of the people who's just been insulted. :| In case you didn't know,I'm a female.
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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by Lynda414 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:08 am

Sky_Blue_Civic wrote:In case some of you didn't know...I'm an example of one of the people who's just been insulted. :| In case you didn't know,I'm a female.


*hugs* Let's just ignore him. He's beyond our help.

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by lunchmeat » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:57 am

Sue wrote:Okay okay, let’s try to keep the focus on the character and not broad generalizations. I admit I am only human and have stereotyped groups myself. But I also realize that it was a wrong and hurtful thing for me to do. Somehow I don’t imagine when RC3 was brought in, that the discussion swung towards those “militant civil rights types.” Or how as a white male majority you would prefer to see a white character behind the wheel of KITT and African Americans should be sitting in the back seat.
For the most part I think this thread has been a really great discussion and a lot of good points have been made. I’m hoping we can keep it going without it turning into an all out battle of the sexes. I think that actually we might all agree on some of the points being made about Sarah’s roll in the show. But I think it would be easier to agree on them if they were phrased with a little more care. Also it would be nice if women could be judged on a little bit more than whether or not they are sexy.


Thank you, Sue. I am with you on this one.

Mr. Marcus, you described women with deep-seated insecurities. That's exactly what I want Sarah not to be; the true definition of strength and confidence. And again, you have given an example of women that does not and cannot apply to women as a whole.

At any rate, as the original creator of this thread, I don't want this to turn into (another) all-out war. There's enough of that on this board. *grimace*

I'd like to bring this closer to the original post - changing Sarah's look to be a little more restrained, a little less "glamour girl". Deanna looks great, but I think that a bit of character retooling is in order. I was actually going to suggest glasses for the character, and it turns out that she was wearing a pair in this episode. (They were designer glasses and the lenses didn't look quite real, but that is understandable since it's a TV show - audiences need to see a character's eyes, hence the larger frames and false lenses.) What did everybody think about that look? Mike made a comment about the "sexy librarian" look, which was pretty accurate. I personally would like to see, if there's a second season, Sarah come in with her hair from the pilot, and not as much makeup (Deanna rocks that eyeliner; she has beautiful eyes, but I don't think it'd fit the character) and dressed down a bit. Zoey and Billy would make a comment about it and Sarah would say "hey, we're family, I don't have to dress up for you" or something like that. It would be a logical transition, addressed by the show instead of a blind change.

Sarah's attitude in this recent episode also got me. She seemed a little bored, or exasperated....did anyone catch that? It was a contrast to last week's episode, where she was more focused and concerned....but since the episodes are out of order now, there may have been some story arc or character progression that we've missed.
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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by Lynda414 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:11 am

Thank you lunchmeat for de-de-railing this topic. ^_^ I agree with you about Sarah. A more subdued look would fit her as leader. I do want to see her more focused and concerned as well.

On a side note, I thought all that black eyeliner made her eyes look too small. If she wants to bring out her eyes, try a lighter color. It would draw more attention to those eyes the guys on here love so much. It'll let them speak for themselves, so to speak.

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by Stealthwalker » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:29 pm

Her character has really evolved since the pilot and I think she's definitely a good choice with being the head of F.L.A.G.
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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by PunkMaister » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:32 pm

So where has Mr.Misogynist has gone too?

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by Lynda414 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:34 pm

PunkMaister wrote:So where has Mr.Misogynist has gone too?


Not here, isn't that enough? ^_^

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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by lunchmeat » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:52 pm

PunkMaister wrote:So where has Mr.Misogynist has gone too?

Please don't stoke the flames. There's no reason to provoke anyone on these boards, regardless of who they are. Let's let it lie.

Discussion about Sarah's glasses, her proposed new look, and character reboot are still open....
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Re: Sarah Graiman: Some thoughts about her character

Post by Lynda414 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:25 pm

lunchmeat wrote:
PunkMaister wrote:So where has Mr.Misogynist has gone too?

Please don't stoke the flames. There's no reason to provoke anyone on these boards, regardless of who they are. Let's let it lie.

Discussion about Sarah's glasses, her proposed new look, and character reboot are still open....


Agreed again.

I haven't seen her glasses yet, I'm going to watch the ep tonight with the BF. I'll let you know. ^_^

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