Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

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Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by RedLEDs » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:31 pm

Yeah, a good TV episode of a good show - but nowhere near their best episode which I thought looked pale compared to the previous fortnights double jointer.

Just wondering though if the beast of a story which is 'KARR' ran away with itself and become too much of a pivitol point.

Was this episode in answer to all those people that wanted to see the return of KARR, was this epsiode something they HAD to do?

Lets remember this series had found its way to standing on its own 2 feet. It had a new KITT, it had a new soundtrack and it had a new premise (ie not one man fighting the cause). But it also had the obligation to do a KARR episode and even though they built a good backstory and designed a great looking KARR - was this episode the key to the door which now allows them to start afresh and continue with new ideas without having the bruden of the obligatory KARR episode hanging around like a black cloud overhead?

I don't know, I suppose I dont really think so - but it is a possibility

I only say all this as this episode was messy, the story was rushed, huge 'gasp' moments were reduced to sighs and even though it was a decent episode - it was not what it could have been. But then again - how many things in life meet our expectations when we have been waiting so long.

Again, kudos to the CGI team and a sideways glance at the person that come up with the idea of X-Box gamer. :-(

So it seems we go forward into the Knight Rider story with a back to basics ethos of FLAG with the Knight(s) in shining armour having adventures like they used to in the original series.
The characters, KITT and style of the show have now been established and I say it again - the KARR thing is now under the carpet.

Hope I explained this well and would be interesting to hear what others think about the failures of this episode being attributed to the fact they had to get the KARR episode out of the way?

Finally though, and most probably - is that the episode suffered funding problems and the fat cats did not give them the money to make the episode they wanted. The funding and cost problem has ruined many great series which even though they were in their prime, were cut down the mere shells of the potential because of servely restricted funding. A case in point - BBC: The Tripods. Huge viewing figures, a great trilogy of adventure, amazing special effects for the era and great characters. They filmed 2 series of the trilogy and when it came for time to shoot the third and final part - the BBC pulled the plug because they said it cost too much.

I am rambling now I know, but back to the original point - was this episode just a way of getting the KARR story out of the way so they could move on?

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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by knightny » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:38 pm

I am rambling now I know, but back to the original point - was this episode just a way of getting the KARR story out of the way so they could move on?


ding-ding-ding.....we have a winner

GST could care less about the original series and its hardcore fans. Throw in a vague reference, have KARR say, "I am KARR", throw in a ski mode and the fans will be happy.

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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by PunkMaister » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:20 pm

knightny wrote:
I am rambling now I know, but back to the original point - was this episode just a way of getting the KARR story out of the way so they could move on?


ding-ding-ding.....we have a winner

GST could care less about the original series and its hardcore fans. Throw in a vague reference, have KARR say, "I am KARR", throw in a ski mode and the fans will be happy.

Not necessarily. The NSA guy told both Mike and Sarah that they could not stop the KARR project and given that I doubt it'll be the last we hear of it, provided the show is renewed that is...

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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by Amir » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:05 pm

If they wanted to get KARR out of the way, surely keeping him in Mustang mode would have cost less than all this VFX? No, there would have been cheaper ways of doing that. That's not the reason.

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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by Mr.Marcus » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:15 pm

Nah I don't think it was getting KARR out of the way. It wreaks of someone who has a cursory knowledge of KR and who knew only that 1) KARR was a major villain in the KR universe 2) He has a yellow scanner and 3) He's voiced by the dude who does Optimus Prime. From what was shown its pretty clear they didn't know or understand what motivates KARR, why he and KITT hate each other, how he manipulates humans to do the things he can't, etc. They just wanted to give the show that "tune in" factor and set him up as a token villain.

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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by PunkMaister » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:52 pm

Amir wrote:If they wanted to get KARR out of the way, surely keeping him in Mustang mode would have cost less than all this VFX? No, there would have been cheaper ways of doing that. That's not the reason.


Precisely that and what the NSA guy told Mike and Sarah that they could not stop the KARR project and that it would end up sooner or latter costing them ther lives (Not the exact words but there).

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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by Knight_uk » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:01 pm

Nah I don't think it was getting KARR out of the way. It wreaks of someone who has a cursory knowledge of KR and who knew only that 1) KARR was a major villain in the KR universe 2) He has a yellow scanner and 3) He's voiced by the dude who does Optimus Prime. From what was shown its pretty clear they didn't know or understand what motivates KARR, why he and KITT hate each other, how he manipulates humans to do the things he can't, etc. They just wanted to give the show that "tune in" factor and set him up as a token villain.



This is exactly how I feel. The man (GST) is so far up himself. I have heard people say the TV movie wasn't exciting, boring, not enough action. That IMO isn't what a backdoor pilot TV movie is for. It is to lay the foundations for the series forthcoming. Remember 1982 "Knight of the Pheonix"? Large chunks of it had no action, we didn't see KITT for the first 45 mins or so, then bits where Micheal and KITT were just driving, and at the end they got the bad guys. It was all groundwork for the series! They then continued in the essence of that TV movie. Why NBC let David Andron make the TV movie (2008) and then give the show to another EP then let him do it his way is beyond me. This isn't Fast and the Furious or Transformers. I do like the show in many ways but I believe it could have been so much better and GST's attitude to the show could see it cancelled.
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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by Victor Kros » Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:44 am

Knight_uk wrote:
Nah I don't think it was getting KARR out of the way. It wreaks of someone who has a cursory knowledge of KR and who knew only that 1) KARR was a major villain in the KR universe 2) He has a yellow scanner and 3) He's voiced by the dude who does Optimus Prime. From what was shown its pretty clear they didn't know or understand what motivates KARR, why he and KITT hate each other, how he manipulates humans to do the things he can't, etc. They just wanted to give the show that "tune in" factor and set him up as a token villain.



This is exactly how I feel. The man (GST) is so far up himself. I have heard people say the TV movie wasn't exciting, boring, not enough action. That IMO isn't what a backdoor pilot TV movie is for. It is to lay the foundations for the series forthcoming. Remember 1982 "Knight of the Pheonix"? Large chunks of it had no action, we didn't see KITT for the first 45 mins or so, then bits where Micheal and KITT were just driving, and at the end they got the bad guys. It was all groundwork for the series! They then continued in the essence of that TV movie. Why NBC let David Andron make the TV movie (2008) and then give the show to another EP then let him do it his way is beyond me. This isn't Fast and the Furious or Transformers. I do like the show in many ways but I believe it could have been so much better and GST's attitude to the show could see it cancelled.


- KITT was introduced to Michael 15 minutes into Knight of the Pheonix. In that short amount of time you were introduced to Wilton, Devon, who Michael Long was, and who Tanya Walker was and why Michael wanted to go after her. You were introduced to the Knight Industries technitions and so on. It did not take "45 minutes" to see Michael with KITT. I'd say for 15 minutes that's a very impressive amount of exposition to establish characters that aren't all going to just vanish by episode's end.

Yes they showed Michael drivng around because KITT was not your average car and Michael didn't like working with partners...he was a lone crusader in the beginning, wanting to play by his rules on his terms and he carried on that persona. It is only when Wilton dies on his deathbed and tells Michael he is going to be that one man that makes a difference that Michael learns there's something worth fighting for besides vengeance...that's his call to action.

Additionally with the pilot you see KITT using his functions in a way that makes sense to the situations presented. You see the demolition derby used as a plot device to show what the car can do and why it's so one of a kind, a cut above the rest. By the end of the pilot you understand why Michael chooses to do what he does, who he's going to work for and him accepting his life as Michael Knight for the first time.

Later that choice is challenged, especially with Stevie involved but in the end the character of Michael was established so successfully in the pilot, every element needed was in place to build the series.

Comparatively, in Andron's Backdoor pilot, the K3000 is introduced in 4 minutes. In that short amount of time you have Graiman introduced, Sarah referenced, and the main villain Welther and his gang. You also see K3000 come on line with the dual scanners and deflect bullets. If you want to split hairs on who had the more development/groundwork for a potential "series" in a 2-hour pilot, Glen has it in spades.

However keep in mind that when Glen created Knight Rider, it wasn't already in existance where as Andron had the luxury to continue from something that already existed and yet had to find a way to bridge his vision with the older mythology. For all the backdoor pilot's shortcomings that people can pick apart, he at least tried to keep things more consistant with the original series from a visual standpoint.

Andron's vision of his characters were drastically different from Gary Scott Thompson's visions of them and you saw a drastic (and in some ways improved) change in how these characters were re-presented on the screen. Sarah was no longer a damsel in distress, Michael had a military secret, Charles was more take charge in his role, and on and on and on.

The fact Andron's two hour attempt wasn't enough to build a series off of and had to be "expanded" by another series creator is where this comparison really falls apart. If they had let Andron keep control like they did with Glen, it would have found its way closer to the pilot that was originally presented...instead we got essentially "two" different yet somewhat simular pilots based upon the same loosely inspired characters and ideas. What Gary Scott Thompson did was his creative vision and I believe not what Andron intended but when you're a showrunner, you have the power.

I think as the show progressed, Andron wanted to make sure he was still involved because after all, these backdoor pilot characters were still his characters. Despite how he may have felt about the changes to his vision, he remained passionate enough to continue to write new episodes to fit GST's vision.

GST to some degree has the power to turn this show around because when it comes to the storyline, for the most part he calls the shots. He wanted the Attack KITT to be "cooler" and they made it, he wanted the series to be edgier and they made that too. He asked for his vision of KARR and they gave it to him.

I would even venture to speculate that from seeing him first hand at SDCC during the Knight Rider panel he never intended to have the original KARR back in the first place. When he was asked about a "dark knight car" or whatever, he specifically said there is "a KARR" he did not say "the KARR would return" and that's a large clue into his original intentions.

In my opinion GST has the power but his ego gets in the way. Did they use KARR to just get him out of the way? I say no, KARR was a contingency plan. If ratings went south (and clearly that's what happened) because KARR is a character from Knight Rider that by name recognition alone, both audiences would identify with and they tossed in the yellow scanner and Cullen just as an insurance policy to make sure both audiences would tune in.

I say mission accomplished.

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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by Knight_uk » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:26 am

My post wasn't in any way meant as an attack on Glen Larson or the original KR. I guess it could have been more 15 mins than 45 before we seen KITT but it felt like longer all those years ago. I havnt watched Knight of the Pheonix for a long time. Im probably not very good at putting my thoughts/feelings into words. The point I was trying to make is that I thought Dave Andron did a good job with the pilot movie, I was hooked from the start and not like a lot of people I thought that KITT looked good as a Mustang. My thinking is that although it isn't 1982 anymore, there still isn't a car commercially available that has 1982 KITT's capabilities therefore it wasn't neccessary to make him "cooler" in the new series by turning him into a transformer/dragster. They simply had to modernise him and maybe and a few new gadgets and tricks but I think they went too far. I really respect your opinions on KR Victor and would never claim to have more knowledge than you or anybody else about KR. I also try to respect other peoples opinions on the show. On some other forums there are people and I bet you know who one of them is :wink: , who bash this series to bits, and there are people who think insulting other people is a way of defending the show. I like the show and I think they are moving in the right direction but I detest the attack mode car/transformations. I thought Dave Androns version of KITT was a lot better with the morphing effect. It looked quite realistic but the transformations into attack mode or various Ford's looks cheap. You can see right through KITT sometimes and for a split second you think "hang on isn't there supposed to be an engine or a seat there?" Maybe this post won't make any sense either but like I said I know what my opinions are in my own head but find putting it into words that make sense to other people hard. I know a lot of people have a lot of respect for you in the KR community and you do a lot of good work within it. Im a member of KRUK and KRO and have also posted on IMDB but find that board is full of bashers and insulting people. I have probably been OTT in some ways and shouldn't have attacked GST in the way I did but it wasn't meant to offend anyone.

Victor, and indeed anyone else on KRO, I hope you can make some sense of what I'm trying to say :good:

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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by BobbyYoung82 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:46 am

Knight_uk wrote:Victor, and indeed anyone else on KRO, I hope you can make some sense of what I'm trying to say :good: :kitt:


:P paragraphs help :D

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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by Victor Kros » Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:04 am

Knight_uk,

Part of the beauty of being a member of the community (any community) is being able to share your thoughts, opinions, and theories and discover things that perhaps you didn't know before and vice versa. I'm in no way, shape, or form offended by what you've said and I hope you view my responses as an intelligent and respectful reply to points that you chose to raise.

I think it's rather interesting to compare the appearance of KITT/K3000 and the exposition set up before hand and you inspired me to drag out my DVDs and watch both again just to revisit them. I didn't want to start saying things without having done the research and I think having looked over both pilots, it really opened up the subject more as to each series's intentions from the origins to the characters evolving forward from Glen to Andron to GST and their different takes on the mythology.

In the end I agree with you about GST making or breaking the further progression of the series.

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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by Knight_uk » Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:19 am

Thanks Victor,

Like I said I have a lot of respect for you just from reading posts by you on here and KRUK and I find we share a lot of opinions on KR and KR08. I'm glad I didn't offend you :good:

KR08 isn't as bad as some people have made it out to be, and I hope it does get a 2nd season at least now that the reboot has happened it would be a shame if it has been left to late to save the series. 5 episodes doesn't seem enough to seec if the reboot has any effect on the viewers.
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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by Knight_uk » Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:26 am

BobbyYoung82 wrote:
Knight_uk wrote:Victor, and indeed anyone else on KRO, I hope you can make some sense of what I'm trying to say :good: :kitt:


:P paragraphs help :D



Point taken bobbyyoung :D like I say Im not the greatest with the english language despite being english :lol:
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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by GarthKnight08 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:30 am

Victor Kros wrote:In my opinion GST has the power but his ego gets in the way.


GST has been the problem with this show from day one! Completely the wrong person for this series! Here is what GST thinks makes a movie or a show.

1. Half naked women
2. Over the top lifesize match box cars
3. Over used stories (some obviously borrowed from other movies)
4. Half naked women
5. Half naked women

Basiclly he tried to make Knight Rider his own completely ignoring the original mythology & the Febuary pilot & now whats funny is after his complete failure he is finally going to follow what the pilot suggested. Whats sad is that by the time he realized this it is already so badly hurt we might never see the side that should have been! And that is what angers me! What a wasted chance, everything was laid out! All he had to do was come in write a continuation with some dignity & everybody would have been happy! But no like Victor said his ego got in the way!
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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by Knight_uk » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:01 am

GarthKnight08 wrote:
Victor Kros wrote:In my opinion GST has the power but his ego gets in the way.


GST has been the problem with this show from day one! Completely the wrong person for this series! Here is what GST thinks makes a movie or a show.

1. Half naked women
2. Over the top lifesize match box cars
3. Over used stories (some obviously borrowed from other movies)
4. Half naked women
5. Half naked women

Basiclly he tried to make Knight Rider his own completely ignoring the original mythology & the Febuary pilot & now whats funny is after his complete failure he is finally going to follow what the pilot suggested. Whats sad is that by the time he realized this it is already so badly hurt we might never see the side that should have been! And that is what angers me! What a wasted chance, everything was laid out! All he had to do was come in write a continuation with some dignity & everybody would have been happy! But no like Victor said his ego got in the way!


That is basically my opinion of the new show. It is not a bad show but it could have been so much more than that :)

I know of quite a few people who watched the TV movie and couldn't wait for the series, and a few said they tuned in to the first episode, however they said when KITT turned into the pick-up truck they turned it off and vowed never to watch again so GST has damaged his own series IMO.
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Re: Was this 'getting KARR out of the way'...?

Post by KnightINSTINCT » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:17 am

Knight_uk wrote:
GarthKnight08 wrote:
Victor Kros wrote:In my opinion GST has the power but his ego gets in the way.


GST has been the problem with this show from day one! Completely the wrong person for this series! Here is what GST thinks makes a movie or a show.

1. Half naked women
2. Over the top lifesize match box cars
3. Over used stories (some obviously borrowed from other movies)
4. Half naked women
5. Half naked women

Basiclly he tried to make Knight Rider his own completely ignoring the original mythology & the Febuary pilot & now whats funny is after his complete failure he is finally going to follow what the pilot suggested. Whats sad is that by the time he realized this it is already so badly hurt we might never see the side that should have been! And that is what angers me! What a wasted chance, everything was laid out! All he had to do was come in write a continuation with some dignity & everybody would have been happy! But no like Victor said his ego got in the way!


That is basically my opinion of the new show. It is not a bad show but it could have been so much more than that :)

I know of quite a few people who watched the TV movie and couldn't wait for the series, and a few said they tuned in to the first episode, however they said when KITT turned into the pick-up truck they turned it off and vowed never to watch again so GST has damaged his own series IMO.




That's not right! KITT was planned to transform into other vehicles before the pilot ever came out!

Man, put another man in charge...geez, ya'll like drunk Matlocks trying to solve the case.

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