Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by DrWho2005 » Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:02 pm

Just a couple things..


It's been said that the set was cleared during episode 17 ( now episode 13).
For what reason?
Maybe the season was supposed to end with the comeback of KARR and this is what was filmed on the closed set..
im betting we see KARR at the end of nexy week.


Also...
Alex, the Government et al wanted shut down the SCC, use kitt for their own nefarious purpose etc etc.
Are we supposed to believe thats all been forgotten because hey, the government doesnt own the lease on a big warehouse? Buuullllll.
The KARR project wasnt just something only Torres wanted.

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by KnightIndustriesTT » Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:09 pm

Very good sequence Master Key, that would have been glorious! Give us an extended episode on the DVDs NBC lol.

I still enjoyed the episode so if I had to pick a constructive criticism for the producers to really look at strongly for next time it's my personal opinion of what would have put the episode up there with the very best of KR, KITT needed to talk to his adversary in this situation and the focus still isn't quite enough on KITT's actions (not just giving him lines) though it's much improved, these last episodes have been great; my constructive criticism between the two versions is that the Master Key version had exactly what I really wanted for KITT dramatic payoff, all of that KITT <---> KARR dialogue would have been fantastic (if it was a cost issue they could have done it in car form), KARR calling KITT out for working with a human like Mike and claiming KITT's just being used like the military has tried to use KARR, KITT telling KARR that it's his choice to back Mike and calling him a friend etc.

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by KITT Season 4 » Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:27 pm

now that I've rewatched it, looking for things i missed, i have to say, this is a GREAT episode, but my KARR opinion destroyed it. If the whole CPU retrieval was one episode, it would have been perfect. I like the Torres death because it is uncertain, some people can use that for good fanfics (maybe he just got knocked out?).

One of the things I found weird was the sex scene. I don't mind it, but the rason for putting it in (Sarah trying to cheer herself up) just didn't seem Knight Rider

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by Jay » Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:30 pm

Personnaly, I liked it. Yes, yeah, could have been a two-parter.

This episode has many, many strong sides and nice touches in it.

I believe that NBC didn't just cut the full length of the battle (the full one is much more effective, and features great dialogue), but a little bit more. Back when we found out the title of the episode, there was more background to Jack Hurst... and what happened to FLAG (probably with Hurst's involvement) was supposed to be explained... if there are more missing scenes, perhaps they will make their way to the KIRD website...

Anyone notice that Billy's blog has a FLAG logo in the recent post? I can hear a revolt over it not being the chess piece - but it shouldn't be. The original FLAG HQ didn't feature that - it was the logo of Knight Industries and the Knight Foundation. So, the logo on Billy's blog is fine. :)

I hate it where actual developers of project (here - our cast and crew, plus Master Key) work hard and do great work, only to be screwed by detached executives... to take an example, LucasArts damaged many great games because people that didn't understand a video game development process were in power. A contrasting example would be Apple - their executives are involved in the design process - and look at their most recent earnings announcement.
It looks like NBC needs some restructuring... to me, it seems like the whole process of marketing the show is muddled, and someone doesn't understand the nature of the show somewhere... ehh.

Looking forward to the next episode!
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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by KAISER » Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:33 pm

well, i think this is the best episode yet since KR airing last year
sadly, the battle between KI3T and KARR was too short :(
i hope that KARR will appear again in another episode :rockon:
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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by knighthazzard » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:07 pm

Well overall what can I say I loved it! However, I have a massive complaint. I want more Knight Rider!! It left me with a hunger. It made me want to see more! In my opinion it was the best of the series offering so far. We may of only seen a glimpse of KARR here and there, but to me that didn't matter.. I had made myself expect to be disappointed and I was nt.

This episode for me delivered. I think the Producers managed to capture the essence of what KARR is and represents. The fact that KARR may or may not bear a connection to the 1982 original? it did not bother me one bit (much to my surprise) I was enjoying the story so much that that did not bother me either.

This episode to me portrayed a message of teamwork of working together much like the original. We also saw the re occurence of 'binary code' (nice nod to Let It Be Me there). Okay so we do not have bibles worth of legacy in there, but I feel the producers did all they needed to. We even saw some nice panning shots of KITT shot in the style of the Trans AM driving sequences from the 1980s. KITT being a Mustang used to be an issue for me I wont deny it, but now I just look at it with a glean in my eye and think that KARR (car oops) is freakin cool.

Down to the team of 4 now (5 including KI3T). The characters are all starting to develop and shine. Bruenning is displaying many "Hasselhoff" Knight character qualities but manages to make the "Michael Knight" role his own

Have a think back to Trust Doesn t Rust. KARR did not have a great deal of dialogue in that episode. Okay the battle was more drawn out back then but to me KARR only came into his own in KITT Vs KARR and reflected the full extent of his EVIL capacity. (fingers firmly crossed) that we will have plenty of time to see that again.

As for the end of Torres. I kind of felt a little sorry for the guy (never thought Id say it). His sorry speech at the end seemed truly sincere as if he ressurected the KARR Project through a misguided belief that he was fighting a cause for good.

As for the "bad dude". He is probably sifting through the remains of KARR as we speak

Well done team Knight Rider- A great episode :D :good:

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by Skav » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:52 pm

Lost Knight wrote:His voice sounded the same, of course, but he did not act like the same character.


Sorry, I have to disagree there. Cullen's voice was way off. Even my friend who was watching it with me immediately mentioned Optimus and he's a KR fan like me.

Watch TDR again and there is a big difference. Perhaps Cullen has just lost the way how to do it or has simply gotten older and cannot do the proper voice anymore.

OR.....if this was a new KARR, that would be a good reason for the voice change.

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by CJaguar442 » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:59 pm

awesome episode needed more sceentime of karr though it was too short and more cowbells :lol: :karr:
torres death fit him quite well if you create a monster you should die right beside him amen to that.
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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by MikeBKnight » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:59 pm

WOW, all I can say is I'm speechless. What a wasted episode!! All this talk of KARR, and he was only in it for what, a few MINUTES!?!?!?! The only cool part about this episode was the 1. VERY cool KARR scanner (sounded JUST like it did IN KITT vs. KARR), and Peter Cullen's voice. That's about it. It seems that GST is going back to his original T&A in the beginning of the episode.
All in all a very big disappointment on my end. I expected something spectacular, and that totally fell through.

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by MikeBKnight » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:08 pm

Lost Knight wrote:
Mike Knight wrote:Well, that was the single biggest disappointment I've ever had related to a television series, let alone this whole series. What a rushed, wasted opportunity.

I personally think the people who were overall pleased with the episode are certifiably insane. And I don't care how cruel that sounds.

I had my smaller problems with the episode, such as the pacing and the cramming-in of information that should be important to us but isn't because it's all thrown at us. The revelations in Mike's past should have been more meaningful, but was blurted out as fast as possible for time. The contemporary music was atrocious. Wouldn't the resuce of KITT have been better with the Knight Rider theme playing triumphantly?

But my biggest problem? The bait-and-switch, just as I had feared it would be. And was fooled into thinking it wasn't, for a while. KARR-in-name-only. What a waste. All signs point to the show being a continuation of TOS (even in tonight's episode!), and the BIGGEST part, the thing that could have tied KR08 and TOS together, KARR, wasn't even the same character!

It wasn't important to me that they explain how he was resurrected from the bridge site. I didn't care about that. As long as they confirmed it was the same AI, I was content to fill in the blanks with my imagination (a'la KARR surviving at the end of TDR). But the idea of a doppelganger form, the yellow scanner, the name and ESPECIALLY the re-casting of Peter Cullen, was all to go toward the biggest bait-and-switch in TV history. All signs pointed to the same AI, finally, a recurring character, a drawing-on of TOS mythology, and it turns out it was all just to hook fools like me into being interested. GST/NBC latched onto the name of a well known piece of KR history/mythology, and just used it to draw interest, without even giving a damn about what kind of expectations it stirred. How sickening.

But worse than that was how unimpressive KARR-E was in the grand scheme of things. He was just a one-off, completely unmemorable villain. Nothing special in his introduction. He was just... there. Transformed, rolled out. No fancy reveal. Nothing atmopsheric or dramatic or even intimidating. And then the fight is woefully short. Was the CGI impressive? Hell yes. The guys at MasterKey outdid themselves, but for what? I couldn't give a damn about the character in the end. There was nothing special about KARR-E or the fight, period. The coolest part was the Turbo Boost-in-regular mode (something that looks MUCH better than ugly Attack Mode TB), but it was such an easy defeat for a character that was hyped up as so "awesome and intimidating," when he was neither. And not even a bone thrown to hope for his return, not that I care to see it. Two minutes of a useless fight that I had no emotional investment in. The battle of TOS's 'KVK' was infinitely better, and NOT because it was TOS, but because it was simply handled much better, by, well, people who know better how to make television.

The disappointment of this has turned me off to the show. Not even the end tag about Wilton and restarting FLAG will keep me watching. I'm done with it, not going to even ride out the rest of the season. And it wasn't even that bad of an episode! But the fact that my expectations were used to trick me (basically) actually angers me a lot, which is a surprise even to me.

The worst part of the whole affair was that it was not KARR. Had it been confirmed to be the same AI? That would have made the sting far, far less. Had they just NOT committed the bait-and-switch and called it "KRO," without the Peter Cullen casting? I wouldn't have had a problem with the episode, at all.

The use of the name and the voice was PURELY to decieve. And that says it all about the show. GST has no idea how to handle the show right for it being a continuation (which every sign, including tonight's episode, has indicated that it is supposed to be). The pilot showed that David Andron had infinitely more intention of being faithful to the continuity of TOS in HIS continuation concept. If he had been handling the series version in the first place, the show would have been written better from the beginning, and KARR would have been the same AI, with the carry-over explained enough to properly appease the fans that expected it. This is just the icing on the *?$# cake that is GST's Knight Rider.

At this point, I don't care if we get a second season, and up until tonight, I was all for it. If you're going to use TOS concepts (like, well, a character FROM TOS), do it right or don't do it at all.


Thank you for perfectly articulating what I was too furious to write last night. I also now have my doubts on even watching the rest of the series, but ultimately I know my curiousity will get the best of me. I think I've completely had it with Gary Scott Thompson's excuses like, "NBC keeps reminding me this is an 8:00 show," or "we wanted to add more backstory flashbacks but NBC made us take it out," etc.

I knew there would be people who loved this episode because let's face it, there are many members that will simply like anything that's handed to them with the name Knight Rider on it. I wish I could enjoy the series as much as you guys, but I am looking at things in terms of the bigger picture here, and I think the only way for me to get full enjoyment from the creative decisions of this series would have been for me to never have seen the original series.

Call me cynical, but I'll never understand how anybody can't be furious with the botched up continuity and lack of effort that went into it. How is it possible that what should have been an epic episode (and a fairly easy one to write at that) be done in completely the wrong way? Cut the crap with Billy trying to find K.I.T.T. on some kid's Xbox...it's not a clever idea, it's a lame and odd waste of time. Cut out the excessive technobabble and endless typing and add more scenes of the Mustang if K.A.R.R.'s C.G.I. took too long to perfect. Hell, re-create the entire "K.I.T.T. Vs. K.A.R.R." episode altogether. They blatantly rip off countless other franchises, so why not simply re-create original series episodes as well?


I completely agree with the both of you. I think this will be the last episode I will watch as well. Very very saddening . . . .

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by Amir » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:13 pm

Skav wrote:Sorry, I have to disagree there. Cullen's voice was way off. Even my friend who was watching it with me immediately mentioned Optimus and he's a KR fan like me.

Watch TDR again and there is a big difference. Perhaps Cullen has just lost the way how to do it or has simply gotten older and cannot do the proper voice anymore.


People's voices change. The Transformers movie Optimus Prime didn't sound exactly like the animated Optimus Prime either. 20+ years have done their bit. The 1982 KARR sounded A LOT like the 1984 Optimus Prime, and the 2009 KARR sounds a lot like the 2007 Transformers movie KARR.

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by KamenRider » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:08 pm

I want to throw in a bit here on this idea about wether or not the show is in continuity with the original series. Now, I agree that it is odd the way the characters tend to speak as if this whole talking car thing has never happened before when very clearly it has.

At the same time though, it has to my mind been pretty well established that it does in fact take place in the same universe. The entire pilot hinges on that, the series itself grows from the pilot even though obviously they have been trying to sort of clean up some things left over from it. Not to mention that GST has been trying to get Hoff on board for another appearence as Michael Knight it's as he said in his own words "a matter of timing."

Now, there is the question of okay if this show is in the same universe then on the surface of it looks like Graiman basically managed to make the exact same mistake twice in that he started with an AI geared toward self-preservation. Which seems like far to big a @&^# for someone who cares as much about using his tech to help people as Graiman does to ever repeat. Especially after what happened the first time.

I think in the explanation there is a story and that story will be told on this show. It might even be possible that whoever in the government has been pulling the strings on this project basically backed Graiman into a corner.

Maybe he was brought in to salvage what was left of the original KARR AI to create a new weapon. Since they wanted a weapon they likely found aspects of KARR's AI more desirable than KITT's. Perhaps the entire reason we even have a new KITT is because Graiman was wanting to have a plan ready if history repeated itself. KARR once again going rouge necessitated putting it into action, thus the new KITT was born. A lot of this may also tie into another mystery. What ever became of the original KITT car and his AI? Did Michael Knight retire or is there something more to it? The new KITT even mentioned gaps in his memory. Could this mean his AI is actually the original but he cannot recall memory files of his original adventures of even of Michael himself? At least not without help. At what point did the Foundation cease to exist as we knew it and all of this came under the governments control anyway?

I'm not trying to say that last nights episode was a totally flawless thing but I feel like we're well on our way to getting out of the growing pain stages and I'm willing to give the show the opportunity to really prove itself and to also answer these questions.

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by scorbing » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:15 pm

Listen...

I was just re-watching the episode again and whoever did the editing should be shot. When Michael tells KITT to turbo boost to kill KARR, he's not even done saying "KITT, Turbo Boost" when the scene takes place. They did a horrible job. Any chances of KR coming back for a 2nd season is gone.

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by knighttrider3k » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:56 pm

Frist of all I love the show.I do agree with most of the fans it should have been a two-parter with KARR causing havoc than mike and KI3t find out what is going on and who it is.The whole thing with the NSA taking ki3t's chip out and putting it in KARR was to much. Ki3t's is programed to preserve human life but when his chip was put into KARR that was to much for me.KARR just didnt care who he hurts (like it trust dont rust &kitt v KARR)but killing torres was good I didnt like him or f.b.i woman(cant think of her name)they didnt do to much to help then just telling them what to do.The way sarah was dealing with her fathers death was natural but the love scene was a little to much.And we come to billy and zoe they work well together ,so does mike and sarah .But this is what I think KARR is not dead,Actact mode is stupid but with the police lights it was cool (LIke super pursit mode) dont need it and they should bring back the hoff as a devan type or bonnie to help with Ki3t.I wish NBC will deside to make a second season but they should go back to the bacis.ki3t driving in the real world not the computer and to go back to the seris that started it all and do some homework and get the points right that they did in the pilot :spmgo: : : : :kittconv2:

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by Lost Knight » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:06 pm

Amir wrote:
Skav wrote:Sorry, I have to disagree there. Cullen's voice was way off. Even my friend who was watching it with me immediately mentioned Optimus and he's a KR fan like me.

Watch TDR again and there is a big difference. Perhaps Cullen has just lost the way how to do it or has simply gotten older and cannot do the proper voice anymore.


People's voices change. The Transformers movie Optimus Prime didn't sound exactly like the animated Optimus Prime either. 20+ years have done their bit. The 1982 KARR sounded A LOT like the 1984 Optimus Prime, and the 2009 KARR sounds a lot like the 2007 Transformers movie KARR.


I did mean more in terms of the same actor doing the voice and therefore it had to sound the same. But of course 26 years later we're going to hear differences. William Daniels' voice sounds slightly deeper in the Mio G.P.S. than he did on the show. He even sounds different in Season 3 & 4 episodes than he does in "Knight Of the Phoenix" and most of the first season. The original series also filtered K.I.T.T. and K.A.R.R.'s voices to give them a "tinny" quality, too.

But again, my issue was the personality of the character and his dialogue, not the sound of his voice. And speaking of voices, what the hell is wrong with Val Kilmer's K.I.T.T.? There is no sense of urgency in his voice whatsoever. That really subtly takes some excitement out of the battle. The original K.I.T.T. would say something like, "I can't take another blow like that!" whereas the new K.I.T.T. is more like, "My nanotechnology appears to not be in use" or whatever. Stop sounding like a damn scientist and start feeling concerned!
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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by Sue » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:43 pm

It sounds like most of the disappointment isn't over people not liking KARR, but just that we didn't get to see enough of him. I agree that I would have loved to see more, especially more of him in his mustang form. With the season cut short we don't get to have our second KARR episode, unless we do get a season two, and that is at the mercy of the executives at NBC. I'm a bit sad the ratings were not better to help our cause, though who knows with the DVR ratings so good or the overseas markets. This episode really did feel like a new start to something good. Basically I loved it so much that I wish more people saw it so they could see how cool KR is.
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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by TravisKnight01 » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:54 pm

Sue i watched the episode 3 times today which is the regular amount of the two other karr episodes i watched.

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by Mathyus » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:56 pm

Hey Lost Knight, you have to remember that KI3T was not fully rebooted when the battle was taking place. So, it was as if he was waking up from being knocked out. I think that is why his voice was a little lathargic. (or however you spell it) :)
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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by KITT Season 4 » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:13 pm

Sue wrote:It sounds like most of the disappointment isn't over people not liking KARR, but just that we didn't get to see enough of him. I agree that I would have loved to see more, especially more of him in his mustang form. With the season cut short we don't get to have our second KARR episode, unless we do get a season two, and that is at the mercy of the executives at NBC. I'm a bit sad the ratings were not better to help our cause, though who knows with the DVR ratings so good or the overseas markets. This episode really did feel like a new start to something good. Basically I loved it so much that I wish more people saw it so they could see how cool KR is.

So there was supposed to be a 2nd KARr episode this season or next? :karr:

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by LeslieGruffod » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:15 pm

Sue wrote:It sounds like most of the disappointment isn't over people not liking KARR, but just that we didn't get to see enough of him. I agree that I would have loved to see more, especially more of him in his mustang form. With the season cut short we don't get to have our second KARR episode, unless we do get a season two, and that is at the mercy of the executives at NBC. I'm a bit sad the ratings were not better to help our cause, though who knows with the DVR ratings so good or the overseas markets. This episode really did feel like a new start to something good. Basically I loved it so much that I wish more people saw it so they could see how cool KR is.


Did they plan to bring Karr back at the end of the season? If so, then I can forgive his short presence in this episode if that was the intention. Or is this speculation. Thanks in advance.

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by kittxthexcat » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:40 pm

http://www.knightindustriesresearch.com ... aebfb58167

Don't know if anyone posted this/if anybody else has seen it, but yeah, my guess is Graimen ain't coming back...Would have made a good episode if that guy Torres was working/talking with (the one that says "You're both dead anyway" or whatever), ended up kidnapping Graimen and forcing him to rebuild Karr...
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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by KnightIndustriesTT » Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:01 pm

Sue wrote:It sounds like most of the disappointment isn't over people not liking KARR, but just that we didn't get to see enough of him. I agree that I would have loved to see more, especially more of him in his mustang form. With the season cut short we don't get to have our second KARR episode, unless we do get a season two, and that is at the mercy of the executives at NBC. I'm a bit sad the ratings were not better to help our cause, though who knows with the DVR ratings so good or the overseas markets. This episode really did feel like a new start to something good. Basically I loved it so much that I wish more people saw it so they could see how cool KR is.


Totally agree they've been on a roll with the reboot. As far as KARR, while some people will never be pleased, it's obvious the majority of people loved KARR since the main repeated complaint is that we didn't see enough of him, you don't say that if you didn't like him, we haven't even seen many complaints about the robot form it was done so well. And I was so glad we got to see him in mustang mode as well.

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by KR4Life » Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:27 pm

KITT Season 4 wrote:now that I've rewatched it, looking for things i missed, i have to say, this is a GREAT episode, but my KARR opinion destroyed it.


I agree in part with you, Season 4. It was a pretty solid episode all around. And even though the KARR vs KITT ruckus was too short (for my taste), we still got a pretty cool fight. I still contend that this would have been better dealt with as a two-parter. :good:

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by KR4Life » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:13 am

Okay. *deep breath*

After watching 'Knight to King's Pawn' for the fifth time (you gotta absorb all the ambiance), I have a theory as to how KARR may return. As I said in my first post about this episode, maybe KARR uploaded his data to the' web as a last ditch effort... or he uploaded himself into KITT. Now, over the course of the next few shows, maybe we get glimpses at weird stuff happening to KITT as KARR tries to assert himself? That would certainly open up the narrative to some intriguing 'Jekyll & Hyde' moments.

I could see KITT sacrificing himself to stop KARR as they go over a cliff or something. KARR says "It is madness to destroy yourself like this!" and KITT replies "It is not madness to protect one's.... family." KARR is distracted and is somehow deleted. Happy ending, everybody wins, it's Miller time!! Just wishful thinking on my part. Who knows how the season will end? I just hope we get a green light for Season 2.

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Re: Live Discussion - Knight to King's Pawn

Post by BlackKitt » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:28 am

Hopefully now Knight Rider can be it's badassed self.

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