Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

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Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by PunkMaister » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:29 pm

In this week's episode when Mike was confronted by the hot bad russian chicks and asked KITT for a "Little help" KITT asked if it should use lethal force or not. he asked "Lethal or non lethal" now is my understanding from what I saw in the movie and most of the show that he is designed to safeguard human life so what could be going on? Is it that in certain cases where his driver or those immediately associated with him are in imminent danger he is allowed to take lethal action if necesary or is a writers screwup?
What do you think?

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by ElectricPhantom » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:31 pm

That was the only part of the episode that bothered me.

Unfortunately, I can't think of any plausible reason why he'd ask that.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by Lynda414 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:32 pm

I am hoping that it was just a joke that fell flat. Because while the situation was pretty bad, he managed to avoid it using a non-lethal method. The question should never have come up. Unless it was just to be funny, which isn't how it came across.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by PunkMaister » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:38 pm

Lynda414 wrote:I am hoping that it was just a joke that fell flat. Because while the situation was pretty bad, he managed to avoid it using a non-lethal method. The question should never have come up. Unless it was just to be funny, which isn't how it came across.

Well as I said I think KITT might be allowed in certain extreme situations to take lethal action but he is still learning and he just was not sure as if that one qualified as such. Say for example they come across a homicide bomber and the only way to stop him is to fry the bomb he is wearing but that would also kill the person outright now the guy is determined Jihadist anxious to die to commit mass murder so he can get his 72 virgins as a reward. I would have no problems with KITT taking out that individual promptly and efficiently.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by t.b.77b » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:42 pm

I was talking to Punk on the chat when he posted this and I don't like it either but I do agree with his view of it in extreme situations but I think Micheal should say it not have KITT say it.
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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by PunkMaister » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:47 pm

t.b.77b wrote:I was talking to Punk on the chat when he posted this and I don't like it either but I do agree with his view of it in extreme situations but I think Micheal should say it not have KITT say it.


Which is why I think KITT asked Mike what should his response to the threat be. As I said he is still learning, but seriously people sometimes protecting human life means killing an individual hell bent on doing harm that's the reality of it. Most times lethal action should be avoided but never taken of the grid if necesary.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by Rockatteer » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:49 pm

In a situation such as you suggested I think the question becomes not whether to use lethal force, but more like which life or lives to save. I think Kitt would be looking to protect the innocent first.

As I said in this post... There was really no threat or need for protection and Kitt's question was really "Do you want me to kill them or let them live?". Thats something Kitt should never even consider, let alone ask.

Even if it was a meant as a joke, it was in bad taste. Although I would have to agree that it didn't really seem like a joke.

I think all in all this was a very un-Knight Rider like moment and I think the writers and producers need to take stock of that and not let it happen again.
Last edited by Rockatteer on Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by Lynda414 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:50 pm

I dunno. I know that KITT is still learning, but I think he was more capable of calculating that situation than Mike was. The whole thing just didn't 'feel' right. Maybe the question could have been handled in a better way.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by PunkMaister » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:55 pm

Rockatteer wrote:In a situation such as you suggested I think the question becomes not whether to use lethal force, but more like which life or lives to save. I think Kitt would be looking to protect the innocent first.

As I said in this post... There was really no threat or need for protection and Kitt's question was really "Do you want me to kill them or let them live?". Thats something Kitt should never even consider, let alone ask.

Even if it was a meant as a joke, it was in bad taste. Although I would have to agree that it didn't really seem like a joke.

I think all in all this was a very un-Knight Rider like moment and I think the writers and producers need to take stock of that and not let it happen again.

No need for protection? The chicks did not come out bearing candy bars but machine guns and fully intended to kill Mike and the prisoner he had just taken out of custody. So KITT might have been unsure as to how to react to that threat. so he asked Mike what response he should take.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by Matthew » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:13 pm

Guys,

Let's not forget that KITT took the life of Ryan Arrow last week. Whilst he felt remorse over the accident, KITT’s programming will have been irreversibly changed thanks to his capacity to learn from the people and events that surround him.

Thus, whilst we may not agree with it, the option to use lethal methods is now ingrained into KITT’s programming.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by Sky_Blue_Civic » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:13 pm

KI3T is still learning things,and maybe he'll learn that killing isn't the best way.IMO,I believe KI3T tries to avoid lethal methods,but there are times that he could be forced to do something.
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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by Mr.Marcus » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:26 pm

The reason why it doesn't feel right is b/c it was an oversight. KITT's primary programming is the preservation of human life. I don't see any valid reason to change that since its a core component of the character. KITT would never say "lethal or non-lethal." As dark as Nolan's Batman films have been, Batman has never intentionally taken a life b/c its an elemental facet of the character. Its been fun reading all the excuses being made here but let's call a spade, a spade. They made a blunder caused by a lazy interpretation of the character.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by PunkMaister » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:28 pm

Matthew wrote:Guys,

Let's not forget that KITT took the life of Ryan Arrow last week. Whilst he felt remorse over the accident, KITT’s programming will have been irreversibly changed thanks to his capacity to learn from the people and events that surround him.

Thus, whilst we may not agree with it, the option to use lethal methods is now ingrained into KITT’s programming.

Matt


Well that was a result of the nanovirus infecting him though.

Sky_Blue_Civic wrote:KI3T is still learning things,and maybe he'll learn that killing isn't the best way.IMO,I believe KI3T tries to avoid lethal methods,but there are times that he could be forced to do something.


Precisely but apparently some people here feel it would have been better if KITT had given each chick a lollypop in exchange for their guns and that somehow would have worked.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by Lynda414 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:37 pm

Hey, incapacitation and killing are different things, as was shown when he shot them with the darts. He neutralized the threat withouth any casualties. The dialog was just so off. It should have been handled better.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by PunkMaister » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:43 pm

Lynda414 wrote:Hey, incapacitation and killing are different things, as was shown when he shot them with the darts. He neutralized the threat withouth any casualties. The dialog was just so off. It should have been handled better.
There are times when lethal action might be required since KITT is still learning he was unsure as to how to react. Incapaciation in that fashion may not work in all possible situations. There will always be a situation where a lethal response might be necesary especially if it safeguards many innocent lifes...

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by Mr.Marcus » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:57 pm

Lynda414 wrote:Hey, incapacitation and killing are different things, as was shown when he shot them with the darts. He neutralized the threat withouth any casualties. The dialog was just so off. It should have been handled better.


Lethal is synonymous with 'deadly' as State penal codes define the term. If KITT is pure Artificial Intelligence and his analytical and reasoning processes are based on accrued data which contain among numerous other things Federal, State, Local laws and regulations, he wouldn't use the phrase "Lethal or non-lethal" unless he meant Deadly/Not Deadly or Kill/Not Kill.

One of the tenets of the original series was that KITT would never endanger human life and Michael would have to manually override his programming whenever he took a course of action that did so. The episode messed this point up. The explanations don't hold up under scrutiny. Either this is a storyline which will be explored, KITT develops an awareness of the sanctity of human life through experience rather than from core programming or it was a lazy interpretation of the character.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by Lynda414 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:04 pm

PunkMaister wrote:
Lynda414 wrote:Hey, incapacitation and killing are different things, as was shown when he shot them with the darts. He neutralized the threat withouth any casualties. The dialog was just so off. It should have been handled better.
There are times when lethal action might be required since KITT is still learning he was unsure as to how to react. Incapaciation in that fashion may not work in all possible situations. There will always be a situation where a lethal response might be necesary especially if it safeguards many innocent lifes...


I'm not saying that there will NEVER come a time when KITT will be forced to kill someone. It may very well happen, and it would be a big plot point if it does. Pretty traumatic and all that.

What I am saying was that THIS situation did not call for the question to be asked. At all.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by PunkMaister » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:06 pm

Mr.Marcus wrote:
Lynda414 wrote:Hey, incapacitation and killing are different things, as was shown when he shot them with the darts. He neutralized the threat withouth any casualties. The dialog was just so off. It should have been handled better.


Lethal is synonymous with 'deadly' as State penal codes define the term. If KITT is pure Artificial Intelligence and his analytical and reasoning processes are based on accrued data which contain among numerous other things Federal, State, Local laws and regulations, he wouldn't use the phrase "Lethal or non-lethal" unless he meant Deadly/Not Deadly or Kill/Not Kill.

One of the tenets of the original series was that KITT would never endanger human life and Michael would have to manually override his programming whenever he took a course of action that did so. The episode messed this point up. The explanations don't hold up under scrutiny. Either this is a storyline which will be explored, KITT develops an awareness of the sanctity of human life through experience rather than from core programming or it was a lazy interpretation of the character.



The situation in which KITT would have had to take a life never arose in the original show but in reality this is not always the case. Are you seriously suggesting that if the need arises for KITT to take someone's life in order to ave hundreds you would rather not let him and just allow all those people to die? Well it does not surprise I mean PC (Political correctness) thinking is the rage nowadays and is the cancer that is devouring society and civilization as we speak.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by Rockatteer » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:10 pm

PunkMaister wrote:
Rockatteer wrote:In a situation such as you suggested I think the question becomes not whether to use lethal force, but more like which life or lives to save. I think Kitt would be looking to protect the innocent first.

As I said in this post... There was really no threat or need for protection and Kitt's question was really "Do you want me to kill them or let them live?". Thats something Kitt should never even consider, let alone ask.

Even if it was a meant as a joke, it was in bad taste. Although I would have to agree that it didn't really seem like a joke.

I think all in all this was a very un-Knight Rider like moment and I think the writers and producers need to take stock of that and not let it happen again.

No need for protection? The chicks did not come out bearing candy bars but machine guns and fully intended to kill Mike and the prisoner he had just taken out of custody. So KITT might have been unsure as to how to react to that threat. so he asked Mike what response he should take.

Yes but Micheal was not being immediately attacked or put in a life threatening situation which would require a lethal solution, and so the question really didn't need to be, nor should have been, asked.

And even if they where about to open fire on him, The solution was the same one as Kitt used anyway.. Dart them.

In TOS Kitt would have distracted them with police sirens or something and Micheal would have jumped them. There was nothing in that scene that even really required that question to be asked.

edit:
OMG! They could have used that scene for a classic KR flash back :lol: Kitt distracting and Micheal attacking.
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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by PunkMaister » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:20 pm

Rockatteer wrote:Yes but Micheal was not being immediately attacked or put in a life threatening situation which would require a lethal solution, and so the question really didn't need to be, nor should have been, asked.

And even if they where about to open fire on him, The solution was the same one as Kitt used anyway.. Dart them.

In TOS Kitt would have distracted them with police sirens or something and Micheal would have jumped them. There was nothing in that scene that even really required that question to be asked.

edit:
OMG! They could have used that scene for a classic KR flash back :lol: Kitt distracting and Micheal attacking.


Jump 3 chicks armed with machine guns from over 6 feet away? Yeah right! :roll:

And as I said before KITT is still learning.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by Mr.Marcus » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:41 pm

PunkMaister wrote:
Mr.Marcus wrote:
Lynda414 wrote:Hey, incapacitation and killing are different things, as was shown when he shot them with the darts. He neutralized the threat withouth any casualties. The dialog was just so off. It should have been handled better.


Lethal is synonymous with 'deadly' as State penal codes define the term. If KITT is pure Artificial Intelligence and his analytical and reasoning processes are based on accrued data which contain among numerous other things Federal, State, Local laws and regulations, he wouldn't use the phrase "Lethal or non-lethal" unless he meant Deadly/Not Deadly or Kill/Not Kill.

One of the tenets of the original series was that KITT would never endanger human life and Michael would have to manually override his programming whenever he took a course of action that did so. The episode messed this point up. The explanations don't hold up under scrutiny. Either this is a storyline which will be explored, KITT develops an awareness of the sanctity of human life through experience rather than from core programming or it was a lazy interpretation of the character.



The situation in which KITT would have had to take a life never arose in the original show but in reality this is not always the case. Are you seriously suggesting that if the need arises for KITT to take someone's life in order to ave hundreds you would rather not let him and just allow all those people to die? Well it does not surprise I mean PC (Political correctness) thinking is the rage nowadays and is the cancer that is devouring society and civilization as we speak.


That's a little bit of a strawman argument. The only thing I'm suggesting is that this new KITT's attitude to human life is a direct contradiction to the original KITT's programming to value human life under any and all circumstances. It did arise in the original show in the first season actually where KITT could not kill Michael in the episode "Chariot of Gold." Its a little nonsensical given that they are striving to keep core elements of the original series ie. the scanner sound which was absent from the pilot film but was brought back for the series. Whether this attitude towards human life is correct or not essentially becomes a philosophical question with moral, social, ethical applications well beyond the scope of the discussion here as this is an entirely separate issue.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by WIBoomer1 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:44 pm

Graiman said it best...KITT programming is hard-wired into him. He should have never killed anyone.

This is something that TOS and 08 greatly diverge from each other. You rarely saw Michael Knight with a gun. If you did, it was because his cover necessitated the need to carry a gun. He used his muscles and brain more to get out of situations...otherwise as a former cop, you think he'd be packing 24/7. KI2T was the same way, he didn't have any weapons, except for the laser, and that was only used sparingly. No missiles or guns for him. Purely defensive weapons.

I do realize we don't live in the 80's anymore, but it's the one thing that separates KARR from KITT, both versions. By giving KI3T this option makes him (in my sight) just as dangerous as KARR.

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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by PHOENIXZERO » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:50 pm

Except no... As Charles said in Knight Fever and I quote, "KITT's primary guiding principal is that he do no harm to people. It's built in, literally hardwired into his core memory." So no, when it comes to that kind of thing it's something that's there and not meant to be overridden or changed as the new KITT's personality progresses. It makes the "lethal" comment out of place, even as a poor attempt at humor.


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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by _K3000_ » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:29 pm

Are you guys seriously arguing over this? good lord. Honestly like some people have said in some situations it might have been acceptable to use lethal force. But in this case KITT did not know what to respond to so he asked Michael and Micheal said non lethal! That than goes into KITT's programming end of story!
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Re: Lethal or non lethal? Why would KITT ask this?

Post by Knight2000 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:42 pm

I took KI3T's question as a joke rather than intentional.

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