A problem with the KARR backstory....

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A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by RobWolf » Sat Nov 15, 2008 7:03 pm

I'm all caught up on episodes 6 and 7. 'Knight of the Living Dead' dropping all the stuff about KARR, WOW, I never saw that coming! I perked up when Graiman said, "I will not have another KARR on my hands", and I figured that was all we were going to get. How wrong I was!

I have a serious question. Have the events in the Pilot been totally ignored? Well let me put it a better way, is the status of the Pilot now merely "If you really want to know how it began, it's there, but don't pay too much attention to the fine details", sort of like what the Stargate movie is to Stargate SG-1?

The only reason I asked is that, I assumed from the Pilot that KI3T had been built using some or a lot of old KITT, hence KITT in bits in Graiman's garage. But the description of events in 'KOTLD' implies a scenario similar to the one in the old series, first there was KARR, then KI3T. What I'm trying to say is, to me it seems that the Pilot allows for the old series in continuity, the new revelations in 'KOTLD' don't....

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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by Xebec » Sat Nov 15, 2008 7:25 pm

Well, first, seeing pieces of the old kitt do not necessarily mean he was USED in the new one. Graimon could have simply been studying the old kitt.

As for KARR, the Halloween episode put out that KARR was more of a cyborg, kind of like the ones in the movie RoboCop. They made no reference to KARR of the original series, but again, that doesn't mean they are rewriting lore. It's possible they reused the name for the cyborg experiment.

In fact, the origal KARR and the new one could have different version/model numbers the same way the original and new Kitt do.

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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by Sue » Sat Nov 15, 2008 7:47 pm

They never specifically said that that was the reason the Trans Am was there. Or for that matter that it was KI2T. I'm hoping KI2T's still all in once piece somewhere.
But if you think about it how can KI3T have any of KI2Ts parts aside from data. KI3T is made up of nanotechnology, microscopic elements that can change shape. So I don't see how any of KI2Ts parts can be used, they wouldn't be capable of morphing.
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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by Sky_Blue_Civic » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:00 pm

He said he would never have another KARR on his hands.It's possible that it could be original KARR in a new body.If he did build KITT and KARR in TOS,it would be absolutely stupid of him to build another AI with KARR's programming.

My best guess is that KITT was only disassembled to build KI3T.I hope he'll be put back together soon.
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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by NeoRanger » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:43 pm

The reason why there was a modified Trans Am in Graiman's garage was fanservice; the car's actual in-story purpose was never stated, alluded to, or implied in any way. That's why the pilot was that pile of poo that was pushed into production during the WGA strike and relied heavily on tricks like that one.

All we know either from the show or the backdoor pilot, is that Graiman built KI2T, KARR (either, both or the one, depending on what KARR really is) and KI3T. And that's really as far as it goes, for the time being.

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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by JJSoCrazy » Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:16 am

KARR was referenced by KI3T as his "original prototype" and GST gave an answer on Knight Writers. The question was "are you going to continue the story KITT vs. KARR" he replied, "Keep watching, KARR has not been forgotten". This makes me believe that KARR is in fact the original as we know. Most likely his CPU was picked up and it took from there.

BTW about KI2T, he has no connection with KI3T, I also agree he was in piece in Graiman's garage for purposes of studying to perfect the KI3T or even use some parts, which could lead to a nice thing that in an episode might be referenced!

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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by knightnx » Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:04 am

I think ki3t saying Karr was his original prototype is technically acurate
Karr was the prototype for the Ki2t, Karr paved the way for future models being the original template design
ki3t was an improvement over the ki2t model however he was programmed exactly the same as ki2t, the preservation of human life.

karr was designed to be in total control of himself which would be dangerous under certain circumstances.
personally i dont think graimen built another prototype robot called karr, we all know the cpu survived the head on collision with ki2t without a body and being post 1980 whatever, the karr research was continued. the cpu was priceless karr was alive and a break though in technology ( in the world of kR anyway) i think they tried to re-write karr's original programming and failed.

as well as graimens input with Mike Traceurs shady past and his familarity with the karr robot form, military involvement suggests that theres no way KARR 2008 would be a Trans Am or car for that matter, what good would a talking car do in Iraq.

i think its the old kaRR im interested to see who would voice the character if its optimus doing the voice once more i would personally soil my trousers.

i think they have updated the KARR story well providing they make references to his original trans am form, creation and the 2 encouters with ki2t. i just hope they dont mess it it up. :karr:

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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by knightny » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:06 pm

I still think this is the KARR from TOS, but it's GST's version of KARR.

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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by JJSoCrazy » Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:12 pm

Besides the fact of KARR from TOS, I am wondering if KI3T knows about KI2T and will mention him? On the other hand he was in the garage next to KI2T in pieces so maybe. But I don't understand why they totally disregard the pilot?

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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by rhdaussiekitt » Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:40 pm

I just saw episode 6 last nite, and was kinda stunned when KI3T showed pics of Karr to mike, it was not what I expected,but I had this thought, what if Karr is made from the same tech stuff as KI3T , that way he could be any form he wanted to for when it suited his purpose ? just an idea..
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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by KamenRider » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:15 pm

Just a theory I have right now and if there's something I'm missing feel free to point it out to me.

What if for some reason the government had talked Graiman into creating a weapon, perhaps one meant for the field in Iraq or something. With an AI like KITT's the programming wouldn't fit because KITT is programmed to preserve life.

So they would want something more along the lines of KARR and maybe if Graiman used KARR's AI he thought he could make it work THIS time if there were safeguards and KARR overcame those safeguards. So Graiman's regret is basically having made the same mistake twice by thinking he could control KARR. Twice in life KARR was his sin, KITT was his redemption.

I think another detail is that KITT mentioned there are things about KARR he doesn't know. It is just possible that Mike himself only knows that the original Michael Knight worked for the Foundation and maybe the stuff about his face having been changed but neither of them knows much at all about the fact that there was an original KITT let alone anything about this history behind KARR?

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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by Lost Knight » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:49 pm

JJSoCrazy wrote:Besides the fact of KARR from TOS, I am wondering if KI3T knows about KI2T and will mention him? On the other hand he was in the garage next to KI2T in pieces so maybe. But I don't understand why they totally disregard the pilot?


I don't see how there couldn't be a mention of K.I.2.T. once we get to hear more about K.A.R.R. and his backstory. It would only be natural to acknowledge the past at that point, especially if it turns out that it's the same C.P.U. from the ’80s.
:karr:

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And it's in a thread regarding the halloween episode. :twisted:
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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by KnightINSTINCT » Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:57 am

THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS!!! Damn, I want more of the story to be told now!!

Remember guys, KARR's look doesn't really make him out to be more cyborg than before, if you had looked in the schematic description detailing KARR's transforming abilities in Knight Of The Living Dead, you'd see he could very well mimick KITT's standard vehicle design easily, if he had the nanoskin applied. KARR is naked! He can transform into off road or more into a racing rove mode, if needed. And those arm cannons he has, well, KITT has them too..see Knight Of The Hunter at the end, and there ya go with that.

I really do hope there is a story on our old 80's KITT, and why he was there in the garage in pieces, before Charlie leaves the show. I dunno.. Hey everyone reading, who would like the writers to focus on this tidbit? Is it even worthwhile dedicating or renewing a thread on this subject??

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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by knightriderfan80 » Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:18 pm

"Knight Automated Roving ROBOT" This tells me that his AI could be in any robotic form, unlike KI2T's which was probably designed to remain in a vehicle form, maybe?

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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by Sky_Blue_Civic » Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:52 am

knightriderfan80 wrote:"Knight Automated Roving ROBOT" This tells me that his AI could be in any robotic form, unlike KI2T's which was probably designed to remain in a vehicle form, maybe?

You got a point there!But even it it says "ROBOT" it doesn't mean that he will be that way.KARR is still a robot even if he is a car.This is quoted from Wikipedia:
A robot is a mechanical or virtual artificial agent. In practice, it is usually an electro-mechanical system which, by its appearance or movements, conveys a sense that it has intent or agency of its own. The word robot can refer to both physical robots and virtual software agents, but the latter are usually referred to as bots.[1] There is no consensus on which machines qualify as robots, but there is general agreement among experts and the public that robots tend to do some or all of the following: move around, operate a mechanical arm, sense and manipulate their environment, and exhibit intelligent behavior, especially behavior which mimics humans or animals.

Like it says here:Even though KARR is in a car form,it still doesn't mean he isn't a robot.Even KITT and KI3T have similar parts and components.Even though they are in car forms,it still means they are robots.

How about I link you all to this page here if you're interested in reading:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot
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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by PHOENIXZERO » Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:35 am

I think it was Army_F_Body that said that the novelization of Trust Doesn't Rust mentioned that KARR was originally designed to be a military robot or something like that, hmm...

Army_F_Body wrote:I don't know where I know this from (TDR novelization comes to mind, which I know is not cannon, but it's been over 15 years since I read it so the details are fuzzy), but didn't KARR v.1 kill or get killed his original driver and a few technicians on his first test-run/assignment? I know he's killed (directly or indirectly) in the past which is why he was deemed so dangerous and stuck in the research lab waiting for Tonny and Rev to find him. According to that book KARR was built as an post Vietnam military weapon. He boasts his mastery of terrain in KvK but I still think a Trans Am would have some issues navigating the jungles of South East Asia. To me a humanoid robot mode/form makes perfect sense and a logical continuation of the first KARR project. The government had been designing flying wings since the end of WWII and just seemed to have gotten it right a few decades ago. If KARR started out a military project I'm sure the government would be interested if they knew he still existed and was just laying in pieces out under a bridge somewhere and continue the project over the last 20 years. No doubt la ot of manpower and money was spent on the first project so it makes sense to salvage what they could rather than build an all new all Gobot KARR from scratch.

Cannon-wise we know from TOS that the driver was basically all the back-door they needed in case KITT went nuts like KARR, and according to the show KARR was never intended to have a driver, but the novelizations were written by Larson so it gives you some insight into what he was thinking for the show.


viewtopic.php?f=1047&t=12857&start=225#p153004


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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by LT1Jeep » Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:16 pm

You can't use the specifics in the movie along with the series. There's a video out there of an interview with the producer of the series,Gary Scott Thompson (who is the same one who did Las Vegas, and is part of the Fast/Furious franschise). He was NOT part of the pilot movie. He said in the vid that he was ignoring many specifics in the movie in orer to continue a plot-line that he felt was better fitting.

Also, it looks like NBC feels there needs to be some major changes AND THERE WILL BE:

http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/00019763.html

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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by Kram061-1 » Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:47 pm

who knows

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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by David Whiteheart » Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:13 pm

This new KARR looks like the first edition of the Terminator in Terminator: Rise of the Machines. Granted the Terminator did not transform into a Mustang.

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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by Lexicon » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:30 pm

PHOENIXZERO wrote:I think it was Army_F_Body that said that the novelization of Trust Doesn't Rust mentioned that KARR was originally designed to be a military robot or something like that, hmm...

Army_F_Body wrote:I don't know where I know this from (TDR novelization comes to mind, which I know is not cannon, but it's been over 15 years since I read it so the details are fuzzy), but didn't KARR v.1 kill or get killed his original driver and a few technicians on his first test-run/assignment? I know he's killed (directly or indirectly) in the past which is why he was deemed so dangerous and stuck in the research lab waiting for Tonny and Rev to find him. According to that book KARR was built as an post Vietnam military weapon. He boasts his mastery of terrain in KvK but I still think a Trans Am would have some issues navigating the jungles of South East Asia. To me a humanoid robot mode/form makes perfect sense and a logical continuation of the first KARR project. The government had been designing flying wings since the end of WWII and just seemed to have gotten it right a few decades ago. If KARR started out a military project I'm sure the government would be interested if they knew he still existed and was just laying in pieces out under a bridge somewhere and continue the project over the last 20 years. No doubt la ot of manpower and money was spent on the first project so it makes sense to salvage what they could rather than build an all new all Gobot KARR from scratch.



Cannon-wise we know from TOS that the driver was basically all the back-door they needed in case KITT went nuts like KARR, and according to the show KARR was never intended to have a driver, but the novelizations were written by Larson so it gives you some insight into what he was thinking for the show.


viewtopic.php?f=1047&t=12857&start=225#p153004


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I'm afraid Army_F_Body was completely wrong. He's probably gotten confused from reading the fanfics about KARR's activation. KARR had ABSOLUTELY no military affiliation and nothing to do with Vietnam. KARR was intended to be KITT but he was not programmed to care about anything other than his own existence which led to his becoming dangerous as he learned. Anyway, the line in the "Trust Doesn't Rust" book adaptation (which I own) simply states that the military was actively developing their own version of KARR. Nothing more. The novelizations were not significantly or perhaps even at all written by Larson at least not as far as I can tell and the novels have been shown to contain all sorts of information and plot detail that conflicts with the show canon such as April being Devon's daughter, Garth having a different (but similar) name, and various other things you can nitpick about.

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Re: A problem with the KARR backstory....

Post by PHOENIXZERO » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:50 am

Oh well, I guess that's that then..
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