Karr and manual overide function

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Karr and manual overide function

Post by Knight Racer » Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:40 pm

In the scene where Karr is turbo boosting through the barrels,karr activates the manual overide and tells john to press turbo boost.I understand that early on in the series only Michael was able to press turbo boost but wasn't the manual overide designed for the operator of the vehicle as in overiding the onboard computers dominant program such as in knight in disgrace?

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Post by FuzzieDice » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:18 am

That's something I didn't quite understand either. Since KARR and KITT are both autonomous (no pun intended ;) ). I mean why even bother having them press anything if KARR already is set on what he wants to do? Unless he was trying to gain John's trust by letting him do something to get them out of the rut. I remember he said that right after John panicked because KARR rendered the brake petal temporarily inoperative.

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Post by knightshade » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:15 am

My take on that was that he was trying to get John involved, to manipulate him into feeling more responsible for what they were doing. In for a penny, in for a pound kind of thing. So that John couldn't just feel like it was all Karr -- he pressed the button.

Or it could have been to gauge John's loyalty -- would he really do it because Karr told him to.

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Post by James_kr » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:37 pm

Hey when bonnie in 'trust doesn't rust' is fixing up car couldn't she just have quickly turned the computer overide thing up to full?
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Post by knightdriver » Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:20 pm

I think that was KARRs way of tricking John into pressing Turbo Boost.

He told him it was the Maunual override button. Thats what I got out
of it anyways.
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Post by Lost Knight » Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:43 pm

knightshade wrote:My take on that was that he was trying to get John involved, to manipulate him into feeling more responsible for what they were doing. In for a penny, in for a pound kind of thing. So that John couldn't just feel like it was all Karr -- he pressed the button.

Or it could have been to gauge John's loyalty -- would he really do it because Karr told him to.


I agree completely. Also, it was because they had made that deal earlier, as K.A.R.R. said: "If you come on a little errand with me, I'll get you the five thousand dollars you need." He basically wanted to make John hold up his end of the bargain. Not to mention that he also needed him to grab those alpha capacitors, which ended up in the acquisition of the laser.
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Post by FuzzieDice » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:22 pm

Lost Knight - That scene didn't after the turbo boost through the truck of bins. They turbo boosted through those bins when John was just test-driving KARR after he dropped Mandy off at her store. They were running from Cops which were chasing them for KARR going too fast. :) Then KITT and Michael didn't make it in time and they got arrested instead.

Knightshade - I agree. That's what I was thinking too, as one of the reasons.

James_kr - Bonnie DID try to short out or override KARR in TDR. But KARR zapped her with high voltage and told her not to try to sabotage him, that he'll defend himself. So she had no choice but to fix him up. But she did trick him twice during that time by first activating his scanning system so KITT and Michael can pick up KARR's scanning signal, and also by having KARR scan Tony & Rev's newspaper to see where they were going to strike next.

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Post by Lost Knight » Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:24 pm

FuzzieDice wrote:Lost Knight - That scene didn't after the turbo boost through the truck of bins. They turbo boosted through those bins when John was just test-driving KARR after he dropped Mandy off at her store. They were running from Cops which were chasing them for KARR going too fast. :) Then KITT and Michael didn't make it in time and they got arrested instead.


Oh, I realized that, FuzzieDice, but was just focusing on that later scene. As for the Manual Override, let's not forget that K.A.R.R. may have felt he was in danger himself, and therefore let his self-preservation programming take priority (because it is his priority). That is the main difference between him and K.I.T.T.── KITT would do the same thing if a human life were at stake, because that's his primary program; it just so happens that Michael almost always was aware when one of their turbo boosts could have endangered the lives of civilians, therefore KITT didn't have to override him in that sense (not that I can remember, anyway).

As for the later scene when KARR makes John press Turbo Boost, like I said, he was making John live up to his end of the bargain. Of course, the only reason KARR bothered bargaining in the first place was because he'd get something out of the deal for his preservation. He wanted a companion/driver, and realized that would be the smartest way to go about things, rather than killing everyone in his path.
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Post by Arroww' » Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:24 am

knightshade wrote:My take on that was that he was trying to get John involved, to manipulate him into feeling more responsible for what they were doing. In for a penny, in for a pound kind of thing. So that John couldn't just feel like it was all Karr -- he pressed the button.

Or it could have been to gauge John's loyalty -- would he really do it because Karr told him to.


I'm agreed. Of course KARR, like KITT, was able to activate himself Turbo Boost, as you can see at the end of KITT vs KARR.

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Post by FuzzieDice » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:35 am

Lost Knight - I guess I must have misunderstood. Sorry about that. :oops: I think I see what you're saying now. And, I think KARR developed past his primary programming to make his primary programming to end Michael and KITT or he would not have allowed himself to get into a position where he'd explode like that. :)

So, if that is the case, then if KARR was treated right, then he could have made his primary programming much like KITT's. I mean, if KARR could bypass his self-preservation programming to try and destroy KITT (ie. "If I am destroyed, so shall you be!") then in the right hands he could have been able to bypass his self-preservation programming to protect a driver who would not desert him.

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Post by SadArticle » Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:51 pm

Oh, I realized that, FuzzieDice, but was just focusing on that later scene. As for the Manual Override, let's not forget that K.A.R.R. may have felt he was in danger himself, and therefore let his self-preservation programming take priority (because it is his priority). That is the main difference between him and K.I.T.T.── KITT would do the same thing if a human life were at stake, because that's his primary program; it just so happens that Michael almost always was aware when one of their turbo boosts could have endangered the lives of civilians, therefore KITT didn't have to override him in that sense (not that I can remember, anyway).


I don't think Kitt has ever had to override a Turbo-boost, but he has told Michael it wouldn't be safe more than once (involving a school bus trapped behind a lorry in 'Custom KITT', as one example).

Anyway, I chimed in to ask a vaguely related question: can anyone suggest, using the Knight Rider universe and computer savvy, what would happen if Kitt's dominant programme was accidentally overridden? Hypothetical even for Knight Rider, but say if the car had killed Tino in 'Silent Knight', instead of the kid rolling over the hood because Michael had thrown on the brakes? Would it have to be a calculated decision on Kitt's part, or would an accident produce the same question? What would such an event do to Kitt? What is the equivalent of a dominant programme in a human - is it more than a 'conscience'? :?:

And on another mini-tangent, I noticed a nice continuity detail with Kitt and KARR in a season one episode, 'A Plush Ride', recently: both AIs trust people because they are told they can by those close to them. KARR accepts the word of Tony that he can trust the pair of thieves, and Kitt fails to alert Michael to the fact that a smoke canister was planted in Knight's room because Michael told him that Redmond, the guy running the training camp, could be trusted. Both episodes are first season, too, so Kitt and KARR are also showing a childlike naivete in accepting verbal guarantees. No point to this, just thought it was a nice detail :D

Sorry for butting in, any suggestions for the random query above more than welcome

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Post by Lost Knight » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:41 pm

FuzzieDice wrote:And, I think KARR developed past his primary programming to make his primary programming to end Michael and KITT or he would not have allowed himself to get into a position where he'd explode like that. :)


Interesting, but I don't quite think this was the case. As Michael said to K.A.R.R., "You're never gonna be free until you defeat us," which I think meant that in order for KARR to continue his existence, he'd have to get rid of Michael and K.I.T.T. once and for all no matter the risk. He had gotten his scanner zapped by his own laser, therefore he was now more vulnerable. But I think the reason that he placed himself in the position of that climactic turbo boost was ultimately so he could be free. So really, the whole reason KARR was fighting Michael and KITT was for his own best interests the whole time.

The first time KARR retreated from confrontation because his systems were not yet up-to-par, otherwise he would have taken care of Michael and KITT then and there. The second time, even though he knew he was vulnerable after the laser blast, he had to see it through to finish the job so that he could be free.

FuzzieDice wrote:So, if that is the case, then if KARR was treated right, then he could have made his primary programming much like KITT's. I mean, if KARR could bypass his self-preservation programming to try and destroy KITT (ie. "If I am destroyed, so shall you be!") then in the right hands he could have been able to bypass his self-preservation programming to protect a driver who would not desert him.


I agree to a degree; I think KARR would be fine if he were treated right, but the catch would be that there would have to be something in it for him. He could probably maintain a friendship with a driver, so long as "one hand washes the other," so to speak.
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Post by FuzzieDice » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:14 pm

I think KARR would have calculated the odds after the laser hit to determine if he would be free or destroyed if he went through with the plan. I think he knew it was the end - thus that statement "If I am destroyed..." He knew he wasn't going to make it. He just had one thing on his mind then. Revenge.

As for car-driver friendship, I always thought it was like that with any car or driver. ;) I always say "If you treat your car right, he'll treat you right." :) And I think KARR realizes he needs *A* human to maintain him. But he just had no luck in finding the "right" human.

I guess I sympathize with KARR because what Wilton Knight did to him, the idea of shutting down an AI because it was following instructions a bit too precisely (if one reads the book Trust Doesn't Rust) was unethical. And that "self-preservation" thing, that wasn't the whole deal that was wrong with KARR (as mentioned, I believe KARR could have been convinced to be fixed up or upgraded). I don't like KITT's "preserve *human* life" programming either. It should have been "preserve ALL life". But then he wouldn't have been able to destroy KARR if that was the case.

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Post by Lost Knight » Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:56 pm

FuzzieDice wrote:I think KARR would have calculated the odds after the laser hit to determine if he would be free or destroyed if he went through with the plan. I think he knew it was the end - thus that statement "If I am destroyed..." He knew he wasn't going to make it. He just had one thing on his mind then. Revenge.


Could be. But he did use the word if, as in "If I am destroyed, so shall you be." He could have also been gambling for his freedom, with the risk being death. Depends on how you look at it, I guess. :)
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