Knight Rider Legacy Discussion Thread

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Post by Amianda » Tue Sep 10, 2002 4:33 pm

Look, it's just a book, not the end of the world. I don't have any real information on this issue but lets just assume for once that Mike is right and there are sections of his webpage that were, intentionally or not, copied into the book. Joe and Richie are getting paid for that material and Mike is not. How would you feel if someone used information that you painstakingly compiled and composed without your permission and then got all the credit and the profits for it? Since you do not know any more than I do whether or not Mike's claim is valid, why not stop harrassing him about it? Why not take a deep breath and relax with the knowledge that the book is coming, even though it may take a little while longer than you anticipated?

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Post by Karrs_Shadow » Tue Sep 10, 2002 4:45 pm

I would like to get in on this thread, not to provoke or disturb, merely to give my opinion.

Personally, I have not ordered the book. I figured there would be back order and I'm like K.I.T.T., I don't like to wait. I don't find fault in this situation anywhere...neither on Mike, Joe, or even Richie...despite the e-mail. Bashing on any of these people is pointless. Calm tempers and level heads will get you further than name calling and it's more dignified. I'll go with Joe on this one...I trust him that the situation has been taken care of and all they ask now is for a little more patience from the customers. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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Post by Skav » Tue Sep 10, 2002 4:45 pm

I take it, you was not talking to me. Cos i agree with what you say...we should leave it alone and let them sort it out.

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Post by Skav » Tue Sep 10, 2002 4:48 pm

Exactly. I really feel that what that email requested of us, was really unintelligent and not well thought out.

Anyone knows that trouble will come about if we all ganged up on Mike.

It's like hitting a man when he is down.

Whoever wrote it, should be ashamed of themselves!!!!!!!!

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Post by K.I.T.T » Tue Sep 10, 2002 4:51 pm

]
...I just wanted to say that we all have our own views..and its only right people speak out if they feel they need to say something when it concerns them involved..i wont go email Mike i think i have stated my part.

K.I.T.T

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: K.I.T.T ]

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: K.I.T.T ]

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Post by Michael Pajaro » Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:03 pm

As I see it, there are 2 issues here:

1. Did the authors do anything wrong?
2. If so, what should I have done about it?

We'll never come to an agreement about the second point, but I think we can start by discussing the first.

I posted an image showing a screengrab from my website on the left, and some text from Knight Rider Legacy on the right. I added the highlights:
http://www.teamknightrider.com/misc/fallen-nation1.jpg

This is just a representative sample.


Text was either copied, or it wasn't. That isn't really a matter of opinion. But let's use a little bit of common sense here: iUniverse.com would NOT have put a hold on the book if they did not believe there was a legitimate problem.

We can debate whether or not the copied material was justified or excessive, but as a starting point for discussions I think we HAVE to accept the fact that yes, the book does include material copied directly from my website.

Mike

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Post by li » Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:04 pm

people, please.
can't you see it has got us fighting?
I'm sure all of us, including Mike, want to see this book out.
we have to stop this now, this site is based on our friendship and our common likes, fights like that are a threat to what we have established here.

we have done our share, lets let those guys work it out without adding more pressure

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Post by K.I.T.T » Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:16 pm

Well Mike i think i have said my bit on this, but the fact of if they did or dident will never be said.....Im still p,,,,, on the whole thing. I am glad you got what you wanted!!!

K.I.T.T nuf said

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: K.I.T.T ]

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Post by Amianda » Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:22 pm

Mike, there are some people who just cannot see things from another's perspective. I for one am sorry this thread has gone on so long. Good luck with this thing, I hope everything turns out alright.

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Post by KRAvenger » Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:23 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Pajaro:
<STRONG>As I see it, there are 2 issues here:

1. Did the authors do anything wrong?
2. If so, what should I have done about it?

We'll never come to an agreement about the second point, but I think we can start by discussing the first.

I posted an image showing a screengrab from my website on the left, and some text from Knight Rider Legacy on the right. I added the highlights:
http://www.teamknightrider.com/misc/fallen-nation1.jpg

This is just a representative sample.


Text was either copied, or it wasn't. That isn't really a matter of opinion. But let's use a little bit of common sense here: iUniverse.com would NOT have put a hold on the book if they did not believe there was a legitimate problem.

We can debate whether or not the copied material was justified or excessive, but as a starting point for discussions I think we HAVE to accept the fact that yes, the book does include material copied directly from my website.

Mike</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Mike, but I've got to know- Where did YOU get Your material from, that You could copyright it? Granted, I haven't read Your TKR site verbatim-I just find this whole thing rather odd since You told Me for a fact You had no plans to even look at the book. I just don't find You totally blameless in this mess.

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Post by Skav » Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:27 pm

Ya, I can see your point, Mike. It reminds me when Universal Playback were actually copying, word for word, episode descriptions from Paul's KR Archive, when they were first releasing the episodes then they gradually got to inventing their own descriptions.

A simply acknowledgement and a free copy of the book would be a good deal, IMO, but I know your feud with Richie stems so far back that I guess it would be understandable that you would want to take this further.

Skav

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Post by Michael Pajaro » Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KRAvenger:
<STRONG>

Sorry Mike, but I've got to know- Where did YOU get Your material from, that You could copyright it? Granted, I haven't read Your TKR site verbatim-I just find this whole thing rather odd since You told Me for a fact You had no plans to even look at the book. I just don't find You totally blameless in this mess.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When the book was first released, iUniverse.com had the entire book posted online as a "browse before you buy" feature. I looked through the TKR section and recognized my own writing.

I do not know if there are issues in other sections of the book.

Mike

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Post by kittgirl » Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:34 pm

I as well am sorry to hear about the delay with the book. As I have no KR memorbilia whatsoever and I was so looking forward to the book [img]images/smiles/icon_sad.gif[/img] I hope a speedy resolution will be come to, with whomever this concerns. As Devon would say "God speed!"

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Post by Michael Pajaro » Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:49 pm

I'm sorry KRAvenger, I may have misinterpretted your question. If you are asking where I got MY episode guides from, they are all completely original. I sat down with a VCR and went through the episodes describing the storylines in my own words.

Mike

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Post by KRAvenger » Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:51 pm

Actually, i think you answered My question the first time.

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Post by knightimmortal » Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:58 pm

Let me step out of moderator shoes for a moment, and let me give my take own personal view of this.

I have known about this since Mike emailed Joe. And I will admit, it has pissed me off more than a little bit. I can see where Mike is coming from, I can even see a large amount of history behind it, but the manner in which it was dealt with was pretty darn ugly.

1) iUniverse halted production on the book, because in any publishing industry, especially one like self-publishing, it is standard practice to halt production any time that there is any type of question about the content of the book, not even that they have sided with you, Mike, but that they are waiting for the situation to be resolved and for the authors to back their claims against yours.

2) The book is written by two authors: how long was Joe supposed to keep it from Richie, Mike? By the author's own contract with each other, any decisions HAVE to be made by both of them, not just one.

3) What are you going to do, Mike, if they rule that in fact the things did not come from your site, but from other sources? Many of the items that you are claiming, are general description sentences, there are only so many ways that things can be stated.
Alternate of that: What is going to be done if Mike is right?

4) Mike, I know that Joe offered you a few things to try to settle this in a dignified way, including giving acknowledgement and other items. If it were a willing need to reach a compromise without moving heaven and earth, it would have been settled then, rather than lasting this long, and for that matter, getting to this point. If in fact you believe that they did this intentionally, once again, why not both authors, instead of laying this all on Joe's doorstep? (Yeah, I know, you knew Richie was going to explode, but wasn't that his right, just as your claim is yours?)

And for those who don't believe that this won't affect us, if Universal gets any word that something like this is going on, they could start looking closer at websites to see how we are infringing on their copyrights. It takes one person speaking too loudly to end up with the same kind of observation that we got before when a certain website was trying to call itself official. There are also those who didn't get their books that are feeling quite angry, and some of them are not getting refunds off of it. It is creating an increasingly larger mess for all fronts.

So, as a member of the Knight Rider community, I do encourage an expediant end to this situation, even if it means somebody coming forth and being a bigger man, rather than heading for the impasse that one of the authors and Mike could end up continuing until the end of time.

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Post by knightimmortal » Tue Sep 10, 2002 7:03 pm

Now to step back into my moderator's shoes:

I warned you all not to attack Richie, since he can not defend himself as of the present on this board. If you have such complaints, email him, and cc it to Mike, otherwise, as Mike himself has stated before, don't bring up somebody who is unable to defend himself, unless you would like for that person to be defending himself, and I know that most of you do not want that.

Next, everybody has their right to state their opinion. If you don't like it, move on and don't watch it. People who haven't gotten their books, deserve to know why, and deserve to have their say. Anything that impacts this community, the community has a right to have their say about it, as I have provided Mike an ability to defend his position.

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Post by rusti_knight » Tue Sep 10, 2002 8:46 pm

Yeah, what knightimmortal said. I believe she posed some questions that ought to be answered. I am, quite obviously, a bigger fan of TKR than KR (though I like them both) and was sort of looking forward to seeing what they had to say. To have that section ripped entirely would upset me. As Beast would say "...you're really starting to tick me off."
It sounds to me like you may have been looking for trouble, Mike. Especially if you said you weren't going to look at the book, but went and browsed through only the TKR section.
Yes, I admit I might be a bit upset, but I cannot see myself asking for a total rewrite, I didn't do that when I fussed at another fic writer. She took the story down herself. So yes, I am seeing this from both sides.
As for the recognition from Universal, I also think it could become a very unwelcome thing. I, for one, would rather not have my fan fiction site ripped because somebody had to throw himself on the floor and kick and scream.
Do us a favor, prove to the rest of the world that you're not one of those people who has to cry foul at the drop of a hat and insist to have it your way, we have enough of those, thank you very much.

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Post by Centaurus17 » Tue Sep 10, 2002 8:51 pm

I completely see your point on this Mike. While i am disappointed that the book is delayed, i understand 100% how you must have felt when you saw the exact same writing in the book. I know how hard you must have worked on that website. I wish you good luck on this and i hope that everything works out for you.

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Centaurus17 ]

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Post by Skav » Tue Sep 10, 2002 10:26 pm

It's true too..there are only so many ways you can write descriptions of a single episode but the distributors are hardly gonna pull the book off if they didn't have reason for concern, right?

There is obviously far more to it than just that description of an episode. Otherwise I don't think they'd pull the book off just because of that.

Why aint people getting refunds? Do you mean that people want to give *their* books back and want a refund?

If so....why? I'd rather keep it, wouldn't you? I don't believe that consumers would get that fussy!!!

And, thinking about it deeper, why does Joe want to come to an agreement with Mike anyway? Could it be the fact that he knows he copied the description from Mike but is trying to tip him off about it?

I will probably get blasted for making such accusations but if I was in Joe's situation, knowing that I *didn't* duplicate anything from another source, then I sure as hell wouldn't go to that trouble of paying off the person that would be accusing me....just out of pure principals.

The sound of the agreement is fishy..credit *and* a few *other* things. Makes them sound desperate.

If, however, that's the author's method of only simply trying to get the book out quicker then that's them being a mug themselves!

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Post by knightimmortal » Tue Sep 10, 2002 10:40 pm

Laura, the poster says:

Skav, read the post, don't go assuming right off.

1) I said that when there is a dispute of any kind, it is standard practice for a self-publisher to pull the book, not because there is anything wrong, but to give both sides a chance to present their views and evidence. If they found something was wrong, they would completely pull it, and cancel the contract of the author. Or give the authors a chance to correct it.

2) People who ordered the book, have not been able to get refunds for their book that has not come in. Due to the fact that the book is not being distributed right now, orders are not being forfilled, and are being put on indefinite backorder.

3) The authors are working hard to get the book back on the shelves so that those orders can be forfilled, and so they don't lose their small window of sales. They don't want this to stretch on for months for full blown legalities, and initially, they did not want their publisher to freak out, and pull the book. They just wanted it to be over, and for the nervewracking episode to just end. Authors are human too. Joe was willing to take the friendly way out of it to try to stop any large amounts of fighting from going on.

I am telling this from the view of a standard poster, who can't get the full story from the other side, so what else am I to go on? But in essence, that would be from the POV that Joe shared with me.

knightimmortal

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: knightimmortal ]

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Post by Skav » Tue Sep 10, 2002 11:03 pm

I would like to know what websites these people ordered the book from. I say this because websites and other such book'stores' shouldn't be taking the money out of a person's bank account until the book is dispatched. That's common practice nowadays.

And to not give a refund, makes things worse. All websites that *I* have come across has a policy to give refunds if such an item cannot be ordered in or an item is deleted...in which case, that is what has happened with this book even if only for now!

A note to everyone: make sure you read the smallprint about the actual website first before you go trusting any such website or organisation that stocks such items.

Skav

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Post by Darknight » Tue Sep 10, 2002 11:09 pm

Why don't we all just form a circle, sit down, and pass the blame pipe...there's plenty to go around. Folks, let's not let this age-old bickering of the two well-known parties hurt the board over such a trivial thing. So, which side am I on? The board's.

Darknight

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Post by Michael Pajaro » Tue Sep 10, 2002 11:32 pm

Let me say this about Joe Huth:

Of all the people who are choosing to discuss this issue, Joe has been among the friendliest, most professional, and even most helpful. The two of us are pretty much polar opposites in terms of our positions, yet our email messages have been courteous and polite. I will even go far as to say he has been more polite than I have. I think that is partially because Joe acknowledges there is some truth to my claims, but more importantly because that's who Joe IS. I think of Joe as someone trying to make good out of a bad situation.

If Joe and I can exchange friendly messages, there's no reason why this board can't as well.

Mike

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Post by Skav » Tue Sep 10, 2002 11:40 pm

Well, hey, I don't see how this thread has gotten nasty in any way even if the accusations, including me giving some big ones, are going around.

Skav

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