Knight Rider Legacy Discussion Thread

knightimmortal · Post by **knightimmortal** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:55 pm

Well, things aren't as resolved as one might think, so you will want to hold your horses and wait for the announcement when it will be available for sale again.

And while we are at it, how about not letting this whole situation disrupt this board? For every post in one of these Knight Rider Legacy book threads, you owe the board one on topic post. Agreeable?

knightimmortal

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: knightimmortal ]

KRR · Post by **KRR** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 9:19 pm

The first season dash in the first few eps, before the triple-bar voice mods.

ronlevine69 · Post by **ronlevine69** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 9:33 pm

If Mike is such a good moderator in your eyes Mr. Epstein then why did he choose to discuss a legal issue on a public webboard? The email was meant for others to be informed and post, not Mike.

Neither Joe nor Richie will be posting on either board till there is a resolution to the problem. They have asked Mike several times for clarification, as have I, and Mike continues to do the following:

1) Directly bypass comments and questions that remain too tough for him to answer.

2) Continue to insist that his work was stolen and is not using the word allegedly. His post on the Team Knight Rider board was distasteful and belligerent. I don't post on many webboards myself but is this how a moderator is supposed to act if he is right? A moderator should never put himself in the middle of the problem and should stay objective. Nothing has been proven or disproven but Joe and Richie are innocent until proven guilty and Mr. Pajaro needs to stay silent on this issue or risk facing the consequences of his own words.

3) If Mike is so innocent, why does he feel the need to use his moderator position to ask for emails and to further defend himself? When you post notice the absence of both Richie and Joe until a resolution is obtained. That should give you an indication of who you need to believe. I can assure most of you that the situation will be resolved but it will take time.

In the meantime Richie has had ample chance to counter Mike on the Knight Registries board and has not. Hopefully this should demonstrate to Neil and Knightimmortal that there is only one egotistical individual out for his own gain and not the community--Mike Pajaro.

Remember the community was included in the book. Mike Pajaro was not given an acknowledgement since he contributed nothing to the book. Nothing was taken from Mike Pajaro accept his ego.

For that it seems Richie and Joe must suffer his wrath. I am still waiting for Mike to email me. Both authors want to know if Mike has anything but examples to point out or if what he sent was it. I suggest instead of wasting the communities time he address the situation and answer my post directly.

Based on what I see of how Mike conducts himself you are lucky to have a good moderator such as knightimmortal who can stay objective.

Thanks and I look forward to hearing from Mr. Pajaro. As I said before I am willing to discuss the issue on behalf of my brother in order to get clarification.

Thank you.

Ronald Levine

KRAvenger · Post by **KRAvenger** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 11:49 pm

The Team knight rider board is still around?

ronlevine69 · Post by **ronlevine69** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 11:56 pm

Sorry not to familiar with the boards around here. My mistake.

Ronald Levine

Post by **Michael Pajaro** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:45 am

It just occurred to me that with all the damage control I've been worried about this week, I never apologized for what I did.

I do not think it was wrong of me to contact iUniverse.com regarding the book. In my opinion, I believe I was treated unfairly and had a right to react accordingly. However, it was a bit presumptuous of me. I know many of you were looking forward to getting the book, and now you'll have to wait a little bit longer. I do apologize for that.

I just ask for your patience, your understanding, and eventually your forgiveness.

Mike

knightimmortal · Post by **knightimmortal** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:55 am

So, just out of curiousity, Mike, who exactly on this board were you calling petty and crazy on the KRegistries board? http://knightregistries.com/cgi-bin/ultraboard/UltraBoard.pl?Action=ShowPost&Board=knightr01&Post=2854&Idle=45&Sort=0&Order=Descend&Page=0&Session=

It's time to let it go quiet now, Mike. Richie and Joe are no longer capable of defending themselves on this board, so the fairness of the situation has been eliminated. I think it is time for us to move on to other topics that are less....troublesome.

knightimmortal

Post by **Michael Pajaro** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 3:01 am

Considering that I've been right smack in the middle of most of the recent debates, I will fully and shamefully accept the titles of being both "petty" and "crazy". You'll notice I also sign my name over there as "mosthatedperson@teamknightrider.com". I certainly did not mean to criticize this board or its members, but rather it was my way of trying to come across to them as being self-depreciating rather than antagonistic.

I'm sorry for not being more clear with my words.

Mike

knightimmortal · Post by **knightimmortal** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 3:09 am

I'm gonna impose the same rule on you that you have imposed in the past. For every post on this subject, you owe the board a fully on topic post, and that goes for anybody else replying to these posts.

You can act self-depreciating over on KRegistries, but remember, you still have a home to tend to here where you are not hated, and where we still have to keep the Knight Rider spirit alive. We deserve proper representation for our incoming guests.

knightimmortal

knightimmortal · Post by **knightimmortal** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 3:16 am

It's relatively board tradition here that when we have conflicts like this that threaten to take over the board, that we post another on topic post to balance things out. Let's give this a try, shall we people?

knightimmortal

Post by **neps** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 7:51 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by knightimmortal:
It's time to let it go quiet now, Mike. Richie and Joe are no longer capable of defending themselves on this board, so the fairness of the situation has been eliminated. I think it is time for us to move on to other topics that are less....troublesome.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joe has always been able to post here, and is still able to. I don't want it to seem that Joe is banned from this board, because he is not. Richie on the other hand, well if he wants to defend himself instead of his brother, he can contact me and discuss it.

But I do agree, lets put this to bed and move onto better things.

Post by **neps** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 8:19 am

Mr Levine,

Mr. Pajaro was forced to discuss these matters on the board. He didn't bring it up here, and he tried to stay away from the discussion until one of the authors told their story.

If his work was stolen, it's not a copyright issue, its plagiarism and is a very serious offense in publishing and the education system. If this book was a report in college, the student could easily be expelled for less. I'm not very familiar with you or what you do for a living Mr. Levine, but as a graphic designer, stealing ones work is a big deal to me. If I do a piece on baseball and create artwork for it that I was influenced by, does it matter that the original idea wasn't mine? So too someone who is influenced by Knight Rider, enough to right a fan fiction on the characters, would you feel good if someone just lifted your text and claimed it as their own word for word? So what that the things from his site were summaries of episodes. Does his countless hours that he put behind the site into rewatching each episode mean anything? I don't believe that this is an issue to be taking so litely.

Are we taking this to court? If we do, I think everyone should seriously think about the consequences of anything like this. Every site could be whipped away because of that, and I think people should think about what they are planning to do before they cut the nose to spite their face. Anyone who has a mass email written about them should have every right to ask to see it. The same as the mass email should be sent to the owner of the web board which was a major targeting point. If the authors truly wanted this to be ended quickly, they would say things out in the open instead of hiding behind mass emails and big brothers.

If Mr Pajaro is holding up the republishing of the book, that is nothing that I have control of and nothing that I am able to control. That is an issue between the Authors and Mr Pajaro. However I hope that both parties can work through this quickly, but not sacrifice team knight rider in order to do so.

Thanks.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: neps ]

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: neps ]

knightimmortal · Post by **knightimmortal** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:50 pm

Sorry, I guess I should have been more clear. Richie and Joe can not speak on any board right now due to the instructions from their representative.

knightimmortal

knightimmortal · Post by **knightimmortal** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:58 pm

I would just like to add that Richie Levine and Joe Huth are no longer capable of speaking about the book matters until the issue is resolved.

And finally, I do believe that until the book is re-released, the words 'allegedly plagarized' need to be utilized, we are not a court, and it is not our place to deliver judgment on either side, without the full facts from both sides. It is not our place to be siding with one side or the other in a public forum such as this now, unless we would like for this matter to continue on without end.

It is Mike's place to respond to Mr. Levine if he chooses, not us, unless we would like to take an official stance on the issue, which is not our jobs.

knightimmortal

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: knightimmortal ]

Post by **neps** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 4:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by knightimmortal:
And finally, I do believe that until the book is re-released, the words 'allegedly plagarized' need to be utilized,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for your point KI, I changed my message to reflect the IF stance. My post was my own personal view and not the view of Knight Rider Online.com. Mr. Levine addressed questions to me specifically, and there for I felt obligated to answer them.

[question deleted, answered in other thread]

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: neps ]

Centaurus17 · Post by **Centaurus17** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 5:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ronald Levine:
If Mike is such a good moderator in your eyes Mr. Epstein then why did he choose to discuss a legal issue on a public webboard? The email was meant for others to be informed and post, not Mike.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you kidding me?? The fact that Mike is the individual on this board who is directly involved with this conflict, he is the one who should be notified FIRST. If anything, that email the authors sent to all of us should have been sent to Mike, and then when all of this had been resolved, then to the rest of the community.

Don't get me wrong. I strongly feel that the board should be notified of what's happening in this situation, but let me tell you something Mr. Levine - The fact that the authors are hiding behind this mass email is absolutely ridiculous.

You stated in your post that Mike is a poor moderator for choosing to discuss a legal issue on a public webboard.

That's pretty ironic considering the authors who are involved in this didn't even have the decency to do that, but rather felt it would be a lot better to send a mass email asking the board to speak out against Mike.

Oh Please. I'm sorry for getting upset, but behavior such as this is absolutely absurd.
[img]images/smiles/icon_mad.gif[/img]

knightimmortal · Post by **knightimmortal** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 5:53 pm

I suggest you get un-upset, because Mr. Levine was pointing out his views just as Mike is.

And the authors are not hiding behind an email as of the present. They are unable to speak on the board. And if it were your works, you would most likely be upset too, as Mike is, there are two sides to every story.

So I do suggest that you all just chill out now, or I will be locking down threads.

knightimmortal

Skav · Post by **Skav** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 7:22 pm

I agree with Centaurus17 about the email thing. It's precisely what I said earlier on in the thread about that email thing. It's a form of bullying and propoganda to have to listen to one side of the story only, in this case from Richie and for him to tell us to email Mike to basically blast him was just a revenge thing I think. Just to get back at Mike for holding the book up.

But it's not relevant though. I mean, it's being resolved so we can forget the email debate. That's done and dusted.

Skav

knightimmortal · Post by **knightimmortal** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 7:30 pm

It's not relevant, but you are going to complain about it anyway.

People, let it go, and don't start throwing out accusations that are only going to serve to create problems.

knightimmortal

ronlevine69 · Post by **ronlevine69** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 8:09 pm

I think people are failing to realize why my brother and Joe Huth are not responding.

Legally they have have advised not to post and they will not go against the legal advice. The email was aimed at letting people know that there was a problem. I remind you both authors signed it. Check the email, both share the same view otherwise it would have been only signed by one author.

As for Mike Pajaro being right or wrong Mr. Epstein you are correct, the whole community can be in jeopardy over what Mike considers "copyright infringement". However you are innocent until proven guilty which is why Mike's libel statement on the other board was changed to "allegedly".

It is my opinion that Mike has made this more of a personal vendetta then anything else Mr. Epstein. I have no ill will towards you and from what Richie has said you run a great board. When their is a resolution to the situation Neil Epstein and Chris Bremlier will be given notice and at that time Joe and Richie will make formal statements on both boards.

The authors don't choose to hide. I'll be honest with all of you---Richie and Joe have handled this in a professional way. An email is there right to send. They asked you to post your voice. For that you should commend them.

Regardless of whether I share the same last name as Richie, I do not follow the daily board discussions so I am not qualified to say whether Mike deserves to be a moderator. IMHO all I have seen is ways that Mike has chosen to make the problem worse and not better.

The way I see it as a fan buying this book is that Mike felt that his work is copyrighted. Mike responded with a timeline and Neil, he brought himself into the open realm of discussion. It takes an awful lot to do a book and Richie and Joe should be commended for 454 pages of heartfelt dedication.

Instead of being a trooper all Mike had to do was answer my questions. I see that Mike now has no intention of doing that. He has gone on another board and played the victim.

Mike is no victim here. You Neil should be ashamed. I saw your original post but decided to show restraint and give you an opportunity to let your words sit with you for awhile. I see that you made the right choice and changed your wording and some of your thoughts.

Richie is more then willing to talk to Neil and has spoken to Chris about the situation. I think you should commend Richie instead of disrespecting him for not asking to start a war on Neil's board. The email was understood by many and if you didnt want to read it you didnt have to. He gave you a choice and informed you. He didnt try to stick and opinion down your throat.

Now I suggest that people start understanding that the show in question was written by David Goodman and Rick Copp, not Mike Pajaro. When you think it over just keep on looking at how aggressive Mike is in defending his position. Is that what you want, a dysfunctional community?

I urge you to let people speak Neil, but I am for real and I will continue to insist that for 2 years the authors put their best effort forward and included the community in aspects of the book. Let this feeling of hostility towards my brother go.

I have no ill feeling towards Mike Pajaro. But based on his own words, Mike only read one chapter of a book and downloaded it off the net. That to me shows that Mike was only out to protect his interest and not the shows well being. The authors feel they have demonstrated they are willing to promote the good in the show and not hostility towards Mike Pajaro.

Sorry this was so long, but Neil thank you for at least answering me. Now I will await to hear from Mike.

Ronald Levine

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Ronald Levine ]

Edmond Dantes · Post by **Edmond Dantes** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:02 pm

Allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly.

I can't stand lurking any more - something I have done for a year or so, off and on.

I work with Mike, and he mentioned the book to me when it was first available online. I scanned through some of it, and settled on the TKR episode summaries.

They looked familiar. I checked two or three against Mike's web site. There was a fair amount of duplication.

It is ridiculous for anybody to insist that the term "allegedly" be used here. This isn't a court of law. It's a message board for fans of a show about a talking car.

I saw the write-ups before they were locked down online, and I saw Mike's summaries. I will state categorically that there was wholesale duplication of Mike's work in the book. That is not an allegation. That is a fact. You may call me a liar if you wish but I will, in turn, place the burden of proof on your shoulders.

The publisher apparently took the paperwork Mike sent them seriously. I know the publishing business is necessarily careful when it comes to copyright infringement, but if this were a frivolous complaint don't you think they would have gotten it straightened out quickly?

Here are some more facts for you to consider:

1. If you write something original, you are automatically granted copyright on it. You need not declare it explicitly.

2. If you use somebody else's original work without permission, *even if you credit them*, you are violating their copyright.

These are also not allegations, they are facts of law in the United States.

Is it possible that Mssrs. Huth and Levine came up with the exact same descriptions as Mike did for episodes of TKR? Sure, it's possible. Most anything is - but I would allege that it's about as likely that the proverbial room of monkeys with typewriters would do the same.

I'm frankly surprised to see the vigorous attacks on Mike around here - from the top on down. Is he so wrong for defending his own work, and asking that others respect it?

I hope not.

knightimmortal · Post by **knightimmortal** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:22 pm

Edmond, since you do not have background history on the full issue of this, i do respectfully ask that you reserve comment on such things.

You are rather obviously looking at this from Mike's side, rather than the point of neutrality that the ones who are 'attacking Mike' from the top are having to look at. We can use 'allegedly' a whole lot better than being judge, jury and executioner like you choose to be, because we do attempt to keep it open for all sides in the matter. You don't know the full story either, so please kindly do not claim to know such, or tell us how to do our jobs.

If Mike has a problem, let him speak for himself, please do not accelerate the situation.

In addition, we are still asking that if you post in this thread, that you owe the board one on-topic post.

knightimmortal

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: knightimmortal ]

Skav · Post by **Skav** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:38 pm

KI, can I just request of you to stop using words like 'complain' against me. In case you hadn't noticed, which you hadn't, I was forming the "opinion" that I always formed about the email debate.

That's what a public forum is about. For people to air their opinions on a certain subject.

You may call me complaining, and I do "think"..that word can be used in context with opinion, it was harsh of Richie to send an email around so people can blast Mike but others may seem the valid point of it.

So, that's that. I wasn't whining, I was agreeing...another word used in context with opinion, with Centarus 17.

That was all!

As for the above post about the guy who works with Mike, what makes you, KI, think you know any better than the guy? As I recall, you didn't exactly work on the book and as far as I can see it, you know not any better about the situation than the rest of us, regardless of what "information" has been passed onto you!

And I do stress the word information cos we all know how much the net can be full of bull as well as the people in it!

And I meant that in a general term. I wasn't picking on anybody.

Skav

knightimmortal · Post by **knightimmortal** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:51 pm

Skav, I ended up this book's spokesperson for a reason. I do know a little more about the situation from both ends of the deal because I have been talking to both sides about it. As for working in the book, how would you know if I did or not? Were you there? Do you have your own appendix in the book? Were you and your site acknowledged? And all this, and I am still trying to cut the slander fest out before it turns into something too large to deal with.

In short, I have been trying to keep this from becoming a pissing match. And I am not going to hesitate from saying that you complain, because you seem to still go out of your way to complain about this situation rather than do anything to help it. What makes you think that Mike isn't passing the same kind of 'information' that you bashed down as well?

It has been stated before that Mike had no problem with not getting the email, it was the actions afterward, but you still keep going on it. It is a non-issue.

Does Mike have a right to defend his site stuff? Yes. Do the authors have a right to defend their book? Yes. Have both sides pushed this too far? Yes. Will both sides continue to push? Most likely.

Notice the only time that you get lablelled with something is when it is a volitile thread. These threads pretty much are easy to see when they are going to become volitile. Here is a little bit of advice. If you do not want to be perceived as aggressive, and trying to accelerate a situation, stay out of the thread.

knightimmortal

Post by **neps** » Tue Sep 17, 2002 11:11 pm

Skav, just by your comments you can see that you don't have all the information. Knightimmortal did work on the book, she has a section in the book and was/is a spokeswoman for the book so she has a valid view on the situation. No one knows the complete story, not even myself, and misinformed posts can lead to unnecessary arguments.

I think it would be wise for everyone to take a step back from this and refrain from further posting until the situation gets worked out. I think both sides have vented their opinions and we are just going in circles that are going no where.

I appreciate everyones nonresponse on this issue. Thanks.

Knight Rider Legacy Discussion Thread

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