Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by knightshade » Sun Mar 24, 2002 2:29 pm

That got your attention, didn't it? [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

So I was thinking about KR2000 the other day and it occurred to me, what happened to KIFT? I believe that he was an AI too. And they just pulled him right out of the car and . . . what?? Junked him like they did previously with Kitt? I'm detecting a lack of regard for AI life in that movie.

Now, I'm sure I'm going to have a hard time drumming up any sympathy for KIFT, but I think that Michael and Kitt should have thought twice about what they were doing. Kitt was angry about being junked, rightfully so, but then he turns around and perpetrates the same indignity on another AI? It doesn't exactly lend him any credibility. They showed KARR more regard than that and he was a danger to the community.

Anyway, that's my beef for today. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: knightshade ]

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by March2875 » Sun Mar 24, 2002 6:20 pm

I always took KIFT's response to Maddock about "We would have sustained no damage whatsoever by striking that animal" as Self Preservation. Therefore Maddock created another KARR. Which it had to be eliminated or they'd have a problem. If you remember Devon gave him a dirty look like He knew it when he heard it like he recognized Self Preservation as well.

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by knightimmortal » Mon Mar 25, 2002 1:16 am

Maybe Michael and KITT figured that turnabout was fair play, since KIFT was Maddock's creation and Maddock was the one who had KITT dismantled with no regard to KITT.

Or on the other hand, they might have just sent KIFT back into the Foundation Master Database to live out his miserable existance as Maddock's virtual secretary.

Or maybe KIFT was still in the body, but KITT was just a stronger AI. (Be funky for a split personality fan fic, wouldn't it?)

knightimmortal shall stop now. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by knightshade » Mon Mar 25, 2002 9:27 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by knightimmortal:
<STRONG>
Or on the other hand, they might have just sent KIFT back into the Foundation Master Database to live out his miserable existance as Maddock's virtual secretary.

[img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That would be a fate worse than death. In case they should have just put him down. It would have been the kind thing to do. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

I'm not sure Kitt would tolerate KIFT in his systems. But maybe if they didn't know part of his program was still in there . . .

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by BlazeFox » Mon Mar 25, 2002 10:15 am

I agree with those who say KIFT would've grown into another catastrophy like KARR. So in a sense they did FFLAG a major favor by putting him outta commission early right? What I DON'T understand is DIDN'T KIFT PUT UP A FIGHT??? Did he just sit there while Michale ripped out his CPU? If he was anything at all like the KARR I love he would've ran over Michale while he was under him. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Unless he was programmed to obey humans as a safety precaution? Or is it that "trust" thing like in TDR? Reguard? Reguard my rear! Seriously what would they have done to KARR had they caught him peacefully? Dismantle him like they wanted to do in the first place. They didn't wanna just reprogram him to be a good guy, though surely KITT could've used his microwave jammers to disable him temporarily couldn't he if he was weak enough? And the body snatching of KIFT was a revenge thing though. Something to be a "tick for tock" to rub in Maddock's face.
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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by knightimmortal » Mon Mar 25, 2002 2:12 pm

I also keep feeling that through the time of KIFT's existance, that KIFT wasn't a true AI, it hadn't developed the humanity that made it aware of right, wrong, etc. So it most likely viewed the shut down as a natural part of the maintenance, and followed through with the codes that had been implamented for such a thing. Too bad it was such a deeeeeeeep sleeeeeep.

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by jup » Mon Mar 25, 2002 2:32 pm

That's just it. Kitt never really went into a "deeeeeeeep sleeeeeep" when all of KITT's systems were shut down. (I'm not counting the acid dip.) Because, Kitt was always in his own little "world" inside that self-powered/self-contained "Black Box".

So, unless there is evidence that KIFT was designed differently, I am going to have to presume that KIFT and KITT shared this remote "Black Box" existance...which includes having a 24/7 active state.

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by BabsBunny » Mon Mar 25, 2002 2:58 pm

Speaking of putting up a fight, why didn't KITT fight being dismantled in the first place? If I had been in his spot, they'd have had to catch me first!

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by knightimmortal » Mon Mar 25, 2002 3:39 pm

Let's see, there is some evidence that KIFT was designed differently because if he had been designed the same, it wouldn't have taken as long as it did to finish the project. It was like Maddock started from scratch when it came to creating the 4000.

Then there is the whole attitude displayed. While KITT and KARR both showed childlike personalities, the Knight 4000 wasn't developing, he just came that way. He was following his programming and only his programming, rather than going beyond his programming, which KITT and KARR were both programmed to do. It was as if KIFT was pulled off the showroom floor with a crappy attitude, so there was definitely a difference in at least program, if not design.

It could be very possible that KIFT is sitting in some black box somewhere, but that is still like killing an AI. Keeping them in a contained existance, and I think the basis of this argument still to a point is: was he aware of it happening?

Now, as for KITT not putting up a fight, he was most likely put on standby mode, and fighting would have gone against his primary programming. He was most likely cornered in some kind of situation where his only chance for freedom was to risk human life, and he just couldn't do it. He was also probably in a bit of a funk due to being left behind by Michael, and didn't have the will to do anything about the situation he was in. He was Foundation property, what could he do?

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by jup » Mon Mar 25, 2002 4:09 pm

Let's see, there is some evidence that KIFT was designed differently because if he had been designed the same, it wouldn't have taken as long as it did to finish the project. It was like Maddock started from scratch when it came to creating the 4000.

Interesting approach. But, it does lead to wonder how Michael adapted KITT so quickly? After all, if KIFT was designed so differently, couldn't it be something along the lines of adapting IBM's to Apples? And, Michael had neither the time, nor (OR, really shouldn't have had) the knowledge to construct an adapter.

Then there is the whole attitude displayed. While KITT and KARR both showed childlike personalities, the Knight 4000 wasn't developing, he just came that way.

KIFT also had very little experience...at anything. I could also argue that both KITT and KARR were probably the sum of their own programming, until they had experiences to become more than that.

It could be very possible that KIFT is sitting in some black box somewhere, but that is still like killing an AI.

I wouldn't call that death. I'd label that as solitary confinement without any privledges. It would probably cause an AI form of insanity, or even a wish for death. But, an actual death would require either a major circuit to fail or the power supply to cease.

I think the basis of this argument still to a point is: was he aware of it happening?

All I know is that KITT has talked about it as being a "Hellish" experience. Which doesn't sound like a static state, to me.

Now, as for KITT not putting up a fight, he was most likely put on standby mode, and fighting would have gone against his primary programming. He was most likely cornered in some kind of situation where his only chance for freedom was to risk human life, and he just couldn't do it. He was also probably in a bit of a funk due to being left behind by Michael, and didn't have the will to do anything about the situation he was in. He was Foundation property, what could he do?

Sounds like a better explanation that I was thinking of giving. I was going more for the lines of...

This area isn't really given many facts in either KR, TKR or KR2000. Which makes it an open area for fan fiction to guestimate as to what happened. I favor the idea that KITT was kept in the dark about the planned deactivation until it was too late and the techs/Bonnie were already pulling cards/fuses/entering deactivation codes.

Of course, it also all depends on which version you wish to follow. KR2000 seems to be about the total decommission of KITT. Whereas, TKR was more about transferring/upgrading Kitt from a vehicle into that flying fortress.

Personally, I like TKR's upgrade idea over the grim plans of KR2000.

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by March2875 » Mon Mar 25, 2002 6:16 pm

Another thing to remember from KR2000 was the fact of KIFT not being Humanlike like Kitt is. to quote Devon when giving Maddock his honest opinion. "I agree the Knight 4000 is superior to Kitt in everyway, except one it lacks Kitt's Humanity" Then Maddock went on to explain He had lost faith in human beings after being a prosecuting attorney.

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by jup » Mon Mar 25, 2002 10:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by March2875:
<STRONG>"I agree the Knight 4000 is superior to Kitt in everyway, except one it lacks Kitt's Humanity" Then Maddock went on to explain He had lost faith in human beings after being a prosecuting attorney.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehehe... [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Yea...good point.

So, KIFT didn't have Humanity from the get-go. Still makes me wonder if he couldn't have gained one, had he been given the chance with a partner capable of teaching it.

Then again, it leads back to an idea I had for a fan fiction (Chapter one still resides, gathering digital dust, on my laptop.) where KARR's beginnings had few different choices made for him. Oh, how different he may have turned out, had he only been given the chance...

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by jup » Tue Mar 26, 2002 12:47 am

Got to remember that KR 2000 was *suppose to* have gone to series. It would have been interesting to see just how KIFT may have come back into play. Somehow, I suspect that we wern't meant to never see the likes of KIFT, again. It could have become a KARR-like situation, later in the season.

I would suspect that KIFT's CPU had a similar approach to KITT's. (AKA: When Michael placed KITT in, KIFT was kicked out, altogether.) After all, if KIFT's systems weren't designed to work in a way that KITT's were, (Plug in a few cables and such.) then the movie was stretching Michael's talents about computers even further than we originally suspected. (It's one thing to just unplug and plug in a couple wires. It's quite another to build a new circuit that can give KITT a place to even be plugged into.) But, who knows.

We know that KITT hated being locked away inside his own CPU without any exterior input sources. So, I would have to believe that KIFT would have similar reactions. Heck. Even KARR's behavior change may have been influenced by that lack of input, to a lesser degree. (Though, KARR may have had radio listening privileges. And probably little else.)

Ever catch the Star Trek:TNG episodes about that holodeck AI that was created when Data was playing the fantasy role of Sherlock Holmes? (Not sure of that spelling.) Well, in the first episode, this AI character was accidentally created by the ship's computer for the simulation by a couple mis-spoken words. (A character who could outwit "Data", instead of "Sherlock".) In the end, the AI character is saved in memory as apart of the program. But, in the later episode, it is said that this AI was conscious for every second he was "saved". And, he did not like being in this state at all. In this episode, the AI wishes to become a real person. (Rather than as a conscious being in stasis.) The answer is to trick it into living inside its own sim-universe. (A somewhat portable and self contained computer unit. (Although, that is sort of an annoying nit pick in itself. At one point, John-Luc proclaims that it is impossible for a holodeck character to leave the holodeck. Then, at another point, they move the AI into a portable computer, making him somewhat like Kitt. If that portable computer can run his AI matrix, how much of a leap is it to a mechanical body that could be built, piece-by-piece, by the synthesizers?) I suppose it was the safest thing to do. But, it is evidence that Data/Lore were far easier to make then the Federation gave credit for.)

But, I have to agree with Blaze's question about why KIFT didn't put up a fight. While there is always the idea that Michael just pulled the fuses and disarmed KIFT, I suspect that KIFT hadn't yet learned to have any distrust of humans. (Did KARR have any distrust as Wilton pulled the plug? He certainly learned that harsh lesson, afterwards.) Or, perhaps some other unstated reason is to blame.

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by Janeway » Tue Mar 26, 2002 1:23 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jup:
<STRONG>[b]
Of course, it also all depends on which version you wish to follow. KR2000 seems to be about the total decommission of KITT. Whereas, TKR was more about transferring/upgrading Kitt from a vehicle into that flying fortress.

Personally, I like TKR's upgrade idea over the grim plans of KR2000.
</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree with you here. KR2000 seemed a little bit grim all the way through. The partnership between Michael and Kitt all but destroyed - 'Michael, you look like *?$#' [shudders] I can't *ever* forgive that line.
Then there's Shawn getting shot in the head, Devon dying, Kitt in a *Fifites Chevy*!!! And KIFT being an obnoxious git.
I'm sorry, but if it was a person, I could gladly slap him purple. *ah hem*.

I personally think that all Michael did was pull the 'black box' out of the K4000. While this could be distressing to an AI, it probably wouldn't be fatal, and leaves the possibility of KIFT showing up later.

Also, the thing about Kitt being on board of SkyOne is interesting, and leads to the possibilty that Kitt was in contact with Michael all along....and maybe Michael was helping them behind the scenes...(I do hint about this in Knight Rider: Shadows, BTW).
Interesting thoughts from all of you, though.

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by SadArticle » Tue Mar 26, 2002 2:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jup:
This area isn't really given many facts in either KR, TKR or KR2000. Which makes it an open area for fan fiction to guestimate as to what happened. I favor the idea that KITT was kept in the dark about the planned deactivation until it was too late and the techs/Bonnie were already pulling cards/fuses/entering deactivation codes.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's another interesting fan fiction kernel: was Bonnie there at 'the end'? I like to believe that she would have fought to keep Kitt going, but that, when it became obvious that she had no say, she would have left before being asked to participate in shutting him down. Would she have even remained past Michael's deeply considerate departure? I have the feeling that the Foundation 'family' broke up before Maddock came along. Bonnie was in two minds about rejoining the group in 'Knight of the Drones' - if Michael left, thus ending Wilton's original 'dream', would she stay?

All of this is by the by - I have to agree with Janeway. Knight Rider 2000 was about as far from 'canon' as was possible, character wise. Kitt opening with 'crap' - granted, he had every right to be in a deep funk (love that phrase, Knightimmortal [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] ), but I just can never imagine Kitt's fundamental nature changing that much. Kitt was far above such colloquialisms. He was sophisticated, cultured - he listened to Vivaldi, and was a budding art critic ("Thank you Michael, you've improved it immensely"), for heaven's sake [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] He possessed the ability to utilise the English language to better effect. And any promise of the bond between him and Michael being recaptured was lost after Michael's line about Kitt being the one condition of his return. Very sad.

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by knightimmortal » Tue Mar 26, 2002 2:50 pm

This should give everybody a heartattack -- I agree.

KR2K was almost the nightmare version of KR. The dark side of "It's a Wonderful Life" came through on it. It's what would have happened if an element was taken out of the universe we all knew and loved, where Devon was slightly lost, Michael ditched the world, KITT was parted out and considered obselete. (How in the hell could that happen to the car of the future, when the rest of the cars around him were not like he used to be?? He was still ahead of the time, despite that jerkoff Maddock's arrogance.) And KITT became so bitter, that he ended up taking KARR's attitude class via the magical radio link that kept KARR up to date in KvK.

I kept hoping when I first saw it, that somebody would wake up, and Michael would feel a new purpose in life. *sigh*

Oh the fan fic possibilities!

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by Janeway » Tue Mar 26, 2002 5:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by knightimmortal:
<STRONG>This should give everybody a heartattack -- I agree. </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[has heart attack and dies] Lol.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
<STRONG>KR2K was almost the nightmare version of KR. The dark side of "It's a Wonderful Life" came through on it.
</STRONG>

Thank God for that!!! KR2K was just a horrible dream!!! The KR universe is saved, and they all lived happily ever after...
Heh, that's a good reason to ignore KR2K's continuity...it was all just a nightmare!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR><STRONG>
Oh the fan fic possibilities!
</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny you should mention that actually...my boyfriend Steven - alias Shard/Fraggle/Crossfire - said that he's actually thinking about re-writing KR2K so it's closer to the spirit of the KR we all know and love.
In other words, Michael and Kitt *are not* spilt up, and Kitt *does not* end up in that blasted tomato mobile. Hurrah!

If you wanna pester him about it, his addy is...
spfraggle@yahoo.co.uk

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by knightshade » Tue Mar 26, 2002 9:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SadArticle:
<STRONG>

Would she have even remained past Michael's deeply considerate departure? I have the feeling that the Foundation 'family' broke up before Maddock came along.

Sarah</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely (looks down at close to finished fic).

And as far as KIFT being like KARR, yes he lacked Kitt's humanity but he had barely any time to develop before he was removed. I think that to say he wouldn't have developed was premature.

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Are Michael and Kitt AI murders??

Post by BabsBunny » Tue Mar 26, 2002 10:13 pm

I'd totally love to read that, Janeway!!

I've always found KR2K so..well..angsty.

Besides, I don't think it was totally in character for the FLAG gang. I mean, yeah, I could see Michael leaving the Foundation, but honestly, I think he'd keep in touch with everyone, especially KITT! After all, he and Devon were his best friends!

In addition, I do NOT see him retiring to some country place to go fishing all the time. I dunno...I've always thought Michael to be more rambunctious than that.

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Post by knightimmortal » Sun Aug 25, 2002 3:35 pm

I agree, Michael's departure was just...so out of character for him, and what had been established in the original series. It just didn't make a bit of sense.

(Yep, another resurrection. I find all kinds of good stuff while archiving, and there are just a few threads that deserve another chance.)

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Post by SadArticle » Sun Aug 25, 2002 3:54 pm

Let's say Michael did eventually want to put the Foundation behind him, 'Scent of Roses' fashion - he realised he was getting a little past it, maybe [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Would he have accepted that Kitt would have to stay behind, as property of FLAG? Kitt became his best friend (I don't think Devon ever fit into that role - he was more father figure), so I don't think Michael - yes, even Michael - could just leave him behind to run a bass charter.

But - as with everything in today's world - there's the money aspect. Even if Kitt was allowed to 'retire' along with his driver, he would still need a technician and parts to keep him running. And talking. So would have it been more in keeping with Michael's character to stay on at the Foundation, in the background, whilst another driver was trained for Kitt? To me, that sounds unlikely too

[img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

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