Junk Yard Dog (warning: mini-essay)

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Post by M!5 » Fri Apr 12, 2002 7:08 am

I was thinking something along these lines over lunch: Let's say that around 40% of the industrial waste that was dumped into that massive pit was of varying degrees of acidity, and that about 30% of it was of varying degrees of alkilinity. The other 35% is probably still highly toxic, but rates on the pH scale at about 7, just like water.

So there's about 10% of this that actually makes it acidic, the rest is (in terms of pH levels) water. So you've got about 10% extremely strong acid here, and the other 90% is just there to dilute it (I know that it still won't be very tasty after the dilution, but that's another essay altogether.) I think that I've wandered off the point, but that happens quite a lot. My original point is this: Would the "Acid" Pit in JYD have actually eaten the metal (etc...) of KITT, or would it have simply sat there like water?

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Post by Darknight » Fri Apr 12, 2002 7:26 am

Oh boy, that depends on so many things...including how much acid leached into the ground, to be replaced by rainwater and the such, not to mention what type of acids were in the pit, and their initial strength when dumped. Assuming the acid, however, were of a pH of 1, then a 10% concentration would make the pit something like stomach acid, at a pH of about 2. Whether this would damage KITT to the point shown in JYD is anybody's guess, since we really don't know just how resistant KITT is to specific pH's. Interesting, though, is the possibility that alkalines could've potentially been more harmful to the MBS than acids, depending on the MBS makeup, but the show doesn't really explore that.

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Post by Knight2000 » Fri Apr 12, 2002 1:34 pm

I was thinking about KITTs MBS too, right after watching Knight of The Juggernaut. It says that they "neutralised" the MBS using a "base". This to me says that KITTs MBS must be acidic to some extent. (I know I'm probably wrong here; hell knows how I got an A in Chemistry at A-level). But they were probably meant "neutralising" as in "cancelling out" the MBS ie removing it, and they needed a substance or a "base" to do that. If that chemical stuff they sprayed on was acid, the same kind used in JYD, then it should have reacted with the ground surface but it didnt. BTW, shouldn't KITT have detected/analysed what was being sprayed on him?

Anyhoo, the mixture of acids contained in the acid pit may have contained the correct chemical composition to neutralise the MBS just like in KOTJ. The MBS probably wasn't "eaten away at" like you might assume but it may have been neutralised because it reacted with the correct kind(s) of chemical(s). The car would then have been unprotected against from the acid reacting with the metal to produce a solution, ie the metal was dissolved.

The acidity of the pit didn't matter too much. All it did was affect the rate at which the acid mixture reacted with the metal. eg if the acid was strong (pH=1), then metal would have been dissolved quickly. If the acidity was weaker (pH=3), then it would have taken a hell of a lot longer. [Remember that a difference of 1 in pH represents a difference of a factor of 10 in H+ concentration].

Aww crap, I had a sh*t day, I can't think, can't even type porperly and my eyes are too tired tosee so I'm probably rambling on about nothing. Hmm, only 7:45pm. Methinks I'll goto bed and sleep in a bit. Still got one week to go before uni starts. Any ideas on how to waste the time away? I already spent the Xmas holidays sleeping. I was awake for about 6 hours a day then. Still thinking how to waste time. Night Night.

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Post by David Whiteheart » Fri Apr 12, 2002 3:05 pm

Didn't the acid or what ever it was just eat the interior and leave the tires, body and glass alone?

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Post by IndianaKnight » Fri Apr 12, 2002 3:46 pm

If you'll notice when they pull Kitt out of the acid, the trunk (glass) is open, and the windshield is still intact. However, the acid ate away both of the side windows and the t-top glass!! Since the acid ate up the side windows, why wouldn't it eat the windshield and trunk glass also?

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Post by Michael Pajaro » Fri Apr 12, 2002 4:49 pm

I don't think we should look too much into JYD or Juggernaut to figure out the pH level that can hurt the MBS. I think they were just using the terms generically: JYD's "acid pit" was just a chemical dump with all sorts of nasty material combining in unknown ways.

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Post by knightshade » Fri Apr 12, 2002 7:40 pm

Right, I would take it to mean that one of the chemicals in the pit reacted with the MBS. I think they used acid as a term that the general public understands as corrosive.

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Post by jup » Fri Apr 12, 2002 7:58 pm

Interesting conversation about how the chemical pit reacted with the MBS going on here. But, I think we are overlooking another explanation. KITT was probably not MBS coated on the inside. And, I highly doubt that KITT was completely water-tight. There must be all kinds of vents and booster ports and cracks and such for the chemicals to leak/dissolve through that would slowly seep into and eat/destroy every nook and cranny. After all, the MBS was designed to repel blunt attacks on the exterior shell. Not a liquid pouring in from all sides at once. And, even if KITT had some rubber sealing doors, just how long could they hold out against that stuff?

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Post by Darknight » Fri Apr 12, 2002 9:46 pm

It is likely that they did mean to use acid in a general sense, meaning a corrosive agent, for the public. However, all we're told is that it was an acid pit, so we have to work from there. I don't think it's possible to conjure any real idea of what was in the pit either, but the strength of the acid did matter, as the foundation would certainly have retrieved KITT before too long at all, and a weak acid wouldn't have been able to do that level of damage over a short time span. I also agree with Jup that it must've worked from the inside out mainly, after seeping in through the vents and ducts, etc. Interesting, though, that the frame lasted after everything else. If the frame were metal, one would think it would've corroded nearly as quickly. It makes me wonder what the frame was really made of. Unless, of course, we're really trying to read too far into the episode, and the writers just wanted it to be about KITT getting dumped into a pit of really bad stuff, and it guts everything but his "bones", and he's kinda ressurected, and so on.

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Post by knightimmortal » Sun Apr 14, 2002 6:45 pm

*drags self in after a Science Fair*

Hokay.

The frame and the basic structure of the vehicle were intact, therefore giving us a general idea that the MBS did hold. It has been mentioned in other threads that it is most likely that the interior did not have the MBS, or did not have as strong of an MBS as the actual frame.

The side windows were not necessarily eaten away, but with Michael's love of leaving the windows open, who knows? Maybe they were just rolled down, maybe the interior mechanism made them fall, and they were really just there. (And the plastic key ring for KITT's keys weren't really there, we just saw them. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] )

They used acid pit in a general term for dramaticism. In Knight of the Juggernaut, I do believe that they are referring to the base solution to create a neutralization solution, rather than it being basic as in the acid/base sense.

Who knows, a very weak acid or base could have reacted with the MBS to create a faster reaction with the MBS in the same dramatic way as we got to see it.

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(just threw this list of babblings together. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] )

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Post by Darknight » Sun Apr 14, 2002 11:04 pm

KI, I agree with you to the letter for the most part. I agree that a weak acid/base could've done the damage, but it depends on what you call a short while, I think. I would think it would probably be a matter of a day or two at the most before they got KITT out of the pit. If, say, the pH were around 4.5 or so, it'd be a stretch to imagine that extent of damage, assuming my time estimate was fairly accurate. But perhaps with a 2 or so pH it could've been possible. Now if a short while were 4-5 days, a weaker solution could definitely cause that level of damage. In concurrence with what you said, even a weak acid or base could cause other chemical reactions not entirely based upon an acid/base scenario.

I am curious, though, as to whether KITT's frame was coated with MBS on the inside and out,or just the out, as it is never mentioned. One would think he must have it on the inside, since the frame wasn't dissolved. Yet, the show only mentions the MBS "shell" which at least on the surface sounds like it only existed on the exterior of the frame. I personally believe that they must've used the formula to coat critical parts throughout the vehicle, perhaps in the frame, suspension, and engine as well. It's all speculation, of course, but it's worthwhile to think about.

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Post by knightimmortal » Sun Apr 14, 2002 11:17 pm

What I am saying is that even if it was the next morning (which I am pretty sure it was) even if it were a weak acid/base, if it was just the right compound hitting the right area, it might have used the molecular bonded shell as an accelerant, which would have advanced the damage, (basically creating a stronger solution) and depending on which component of the MBS caused the reaction, it could have caused the kind of oxidation that we saw, and still not destroy the entire exterior. (Yea, I'm thinkin' too hard)

The MBS was a substance that was molecularly bonded to the actual body of the car, so on the interior and exterior of the vehicle that had to face the most impact and didn't need to be pliable most likely had it.

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Post by jup » Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:55 am

Originally posted by Darknight:
I would think it would probably be a matter of a day or two at the most before they got KITT out of the pit.


The way the show made it look, KITT seemed to be pulled out only a few hours after the sun rose. This is interesting, as I would have thought that the people trying to keep this dumping operation going would majorly object to letting any outsiders even get close to that pit in order to pull out a car used to trespass on the land, in the first place. Thus, making this retrieval procedure a legal fight. But, they might have thought that by letting F.L.A.G. drive their big semi past the perimeter and drag out the car frame wouldn't attract anywhere near as much attention as a courtroom lawsuit might.

I am curious, though, as to whether KITT's frame was coated with MBS on the inside and out, or just the out, as it is never mentioned.

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The only evidence of the MBS applications that I know of are seen when the techs were using a sprayer on either KITT's or Goliath's outer surfaces. And, I don't believe that there were any other on-screen... - (Oh, wait. I might be remembering some shot where KITT's basic frame was being pulled out of a large vat. But, then again, that might just be my imagination picturing a scene for a fan fiction...I'm no where near sure which it is right now.)

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Post by knightimmortal » Mon Apr 15, 2002 3:33 pm

Not necessarily. If only one component of the MBS reacted, and the rest didn't, then the reaction could be accelerated, and the metal would still stand a chance, but still come out with the exterior damage that it had.

Oh well, i am probably wrong, like always.

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Post by AprilCurtis » Mon Apr 15, 2002 5:38 pm

**Knight of the Juggernaut**
If this has been asked before, im sorry, but i skim read, but.... given that KITT has all these sophistocated scanners, including the olfactory scanner, then how did he not know the consequences that being sprayed would have on his Molecularly Bonded Outer Shell? how did KITT not know what he had been sprayed with??

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Post by knightimmortal » Mon Apr 15, 2002 6:03 pm

KITT thought it was just a water spray, seemingly he didn't think to activate his exterior scanners to scan the compound that had been sprayed on him. Sort of like he didn't notice the forklift coming after him in Junk Yard Dog. He has these moments where he is doing something else, and overlooks the stuff that endangers his existance.

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Post by Karrs_Shadow » Mon Apr 15, 2002 8:25 pm

I'm just wonderin what a pit that size, and that deep, was doin in the middle of a junkyard. Just gotta be one of those good ole KR coincedences* we've all come to love! Normally, I would think that Kitt would have scanned all threats to Micheal, the pit being one of them. There's a small chance he couldn't have scanned the forklift if it had any large amount of lead in it's structure.

See, Kitt's just like Superman in a way...he has a small problem with lead. hehe...maybe some of the stuff in the pit was krypton-ite. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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Post by knightimmortal » Mon Apr 15, 2002 8:49 pm

First of all, it wasn't a junk yard, it was an acid waste dump yard.

Second, KITT can't scan inside of lead objects, but he can scan lead objects coming at him. He knows when he is encountering a lead object, as well.

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Post by Darknight » Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:04 pm

I'm curious as to why a forklift would have very much lead, unless it were used as a counterbalance so that the 'lift wouldn't tip over with a heavy load. Even then, the body would still be made of steel most likely.

With regard to MBS, I would be inclined to agree if I didn't think that the nature of MBS is such that when one part of it goes, it's then penetrable, like in KOTJ. Also, it seems that the MBS is applied only to the outside of the metal, which would leave the inside surfaces to corrode unprotected. I can see what perhaps you were saying, though, that maybe since the MBS is bonded to the metal chemically, if then the MBS holds, the part of the metal that isn't bonded to the MBS would dissolve, but that which adheres to it would remain. Thus, the frame would remain intact to some degree, with a high level of metal loss, yet still retain its shape.

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Post by Karrs_Shadow » Mon Apr 15, 2002 9:18 pm

Ah...okies! thanks KI. I've only seen that ep once and I don't have it on tape yet...*glares at Columbia House* [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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Post by Darknight » Tue Apr 16, 2002 12:26 am

KI, here's where I'll have to split from ya. I think if the MBS did act as an accelerant/catalyst, the metal parts wouldn't have stood much of a chance, unless they were extremely exotic, which would've bumped the price of KITT to much higher than the $11,000,000.00 cost which we accept.

Perhaps the ultimate formula for a workable MBS would be to create a sort of semi-porous fabric or micro-webbing from carbon nanotubes, then soak this in an extremely heat resistance substance. The nanotubes would provide freakish strength, yet be lighter than any material half as strong, and the pyrolamination(whatever ya wanna call the stuff)would protect the nanotubes from heat, since nanotubes as yet aren't proven to resist heat ranging in the thousands of degrees.

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Post by jup » Tue Apr 16, 2002 1:09 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AprilCurtis:
<STRONG>**Knight of the Juggernaut**

given that KITT has all these sophistocated scanners, including the olfactory scanner, then how did he not know the consequences that being sprayed would have on his Molecularly Bonded Outer Shell? how did KITT not know what he had been sprayed with??</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I consider the explanation to this is associated with three theories I have about KITT. #1: KITT/KARR/KRO all had this bad habit of seeing the world through their many visual sensors first (eyes) and all the other sensory devices on demand. (Which was practically most of the time.) Thus, KITT "sees" a water truck coming at him and spraying down the road...and his exterior. (Now, why Kitt didn't find this brief use of the water spray suspicious is another story.) #2: For some reason, KITT's systems were dependant on battery packs that could not be recharged off of the turbine engine. Thus, the less devices that are constantly running off of those batteries means more field time and less risk of running low on that limited source of life giving electricity. And, #3: Kitt's logic, at times, seemed a little weird. As well as a little too trusting of others.

But, I suspect that if another water truck were to ever approach Kitt again, we might see a little different behavior out of him. In fact, I'd bet on it.

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Post by garrettmichaels » Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:10 pm

After watching the acid pit scene again, I saw that the rear taillight cover was still in place "however it was corroded and grey in color". So in my opinion, it goes to reason that the glass as well as the metal was coated, or made out of the MBS. As for the door windows and the T-Tops not being there, someone posted earlier that the window mechanisms probably disintegrated; and the latches that hold the T-Tops as well. Also I believe that the entire frame was probably made/coated with the MBS so that it could withstand the forces of being launched through the air, and then land back on the ground; even fictional Knight Industries shocks couldn't be that good all by themselves. The only thing that is impossible to explain with this interpretation is the tires still being on the wheels. So except for the “magic tires” the MBS held.

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Post by IndianaKnight » Tue Apr 16, 2002 8:09 pm

About the window mechanism and t-top latches: I would still think that they would have to be coated with the MBS as well, or the force of the landing from Turbo Boosting would break them and the windows would fly down or the top fly off. Although, we would never really know if the window mechanism failed after a jump, because most likely the window was already down anyway!!
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Post by firebird91 » Tue Apr 16, 2002 8:38 pm

I have to stick my two cents in here. Well in Knight of the Phoenix they stated that the " car was not made out of metal or fiberglass" it was a super strong alloy. So if that were to be the case then there truly is no metal in the car body at all so then we would have to say that one of the chemicals or more in the acid pit reacted with the mbs and ate away at it.

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